Stupid Stupid Stupid

[egaito]

Sorry Bill, With all due respect, All the folks with DUI's HAD a driver's license at one time or another, that didn't stop them. One can't legislate common sense.

I have to agree. The problem boaters are the one's that would ignore the class, even if they were forced to take it.

When I sell a boat (a part time gig for me), I give away a one-day course to both husband and wife that yields a certificate for new boaters (or not so new). Most people are interested in the courses if access to them is easy enough. I provide the dates, times, and registration forms, directions, and even inform the Auxillary that they're coming.

They cost me little to "give away" the one's that are interested are the one's that will learn from it and use the knowledge, I hope, to avoid the idiots that are convinced they don't need such a course.

I can't tell you how many folks I've done demo's with that when they take the wheel, hammer the throttle and head for the rocks or another boat!

 

[(Nobody You Know)]

The only thing that would appropriatly answer the question is actual feed back from states which have inacted mandatory boater courses with exams - should the results demonstrate a drop in boater fatalities.

I think either Michigan or Alabama had experienced such a drop, but at this time I do not have actual facts. I need to research this.

Night all,

Capinbil

 

[Genesis]

I've spent many hours with new boaters showing them how to handle their vessels - take the milk jugs and some 6lb dive weights out with some rope, set 'em up where nobody can get hurt, and play "fake slip".

Come at it this way, that way, into the current, against it, broadside with it, wind this way, that way, etc.

Then the basics on the nav rules, always with an emphasis that this is not a car, and if you DO hit something or someone, you will almost always get tagged with some of the blame. Never mind that its way too easy to be "dead right" on the water.

I've also bought and given away a couple of copies of Chapman's. IMHO, one of the best tomes ever written for the small boat captain - and even in the larger Hatt classes, our boats are "small".

But - you can't legislate around stupid.

Some of the WORST boat-handling I've seen around here has been by duly-USCG licensed captains. I've filed more than one report with the Coasties over the last five years over this sort of insanity, and in every case that I was upset enough to do so it was not a private vessel - it was a commercial or charter boat that was involved. This includes totally outrageous operation in the harbor here by one "captain" who thinks that because he's running a tour boat that anything smaller than him has to yield in the harbor - to the point of nearly climbing up into their cockpits and over their motors with his pulpit!

Another example - a big bad fishing boat just went down during the WMO. Reports are that it hit something while running at speed at a time when it HAD TO BE dark. 30kts in the dark. Oooook. Why? In the pursuit of money. Sometimes its just in the pursuit of fish. But its always dumb guys. Dumb dumb dumb. These guys just sunk their boat, and all lived without material harm (other than perhaps to their wallets) to fish another day. That doesn't make what they - or anyone else who was out there running hard in the dark - did smart.

Its not just that you might sink your boat (as if that's not enough); its that dealing with a sinking in the dark is far more dangerous than the same thing happening in full daylight. Everything is 100 times worse when you can't see with ambient light, and the risks go sky-high.

I'm not going to tell you that I've never done it (run at night) because that would be a lie. But as I get older and realize that I really am mortal, I've come to like 9kts at night - if I'm moving at all. Truth be told, I'd rather motor out during the afternoon, get where I'm going (e.g. the canyon), shut down the mains, turn on the spreaders and deck lights and fish on the drift in the dark. Its safer. I'm lit up like an oil rig and thus quite hard to hit by accident, my radar is going with a guard zone, and anything that's floating along might impact me but is likely to scratch or dent rather than hole.

Here's another little tidbit. I was out diving on a friend's Hatt the other day and he hold me that he came in from fishing a couple of weeks ago after dark - slowly - and grounded in the channel. He wasn't going fast and didn't hit hard, and fortunately it appears he didn't do any damage, but he DID touch the sand - three times. Now this is a marked navigational channel with a supposed controlling depth of 10'. Ha! Try right around FOUR!

Now what if he had been coming in on plane at 18kts? He might have ripped one or both shafts right out of the back of the boat and sunk right there on the spot. During the daytime you've got a shot at SEEING the bar that has built up - at night? No chance at all.

Its all about responsibility. Every time I clear my lines I'm acutely aware that I'm responsible for every soul on my boat. Nobody else is - I am. My daughter (nine) is with me a lot of the time, and indeed, she ran back with me when I bought Gigabite - from Ft. Lauderdale to Destin - at the time she was FIVE. Foremost in my mind was the thought that if I screwed up in any way - including failure to avoid the consequence of someone else's mistake - I could lose her.

That's the responsibility of being a captain. IMHO, its one that can't be taught, and no amount of classes or licensing will ever change this.

If you think Driver Licensing has improved safety you are sadly deluded. It has not. Indeed, go to Southern California and you will find that close to 1/3rd of all people on the road have no driver license (illegal immigrants!), nor any insurance. All it has done is turn into a tax system and provided a ready means for identity theft. Thanks to our government (again) for getting it wrong. In truth there should be IMHO no driver licenses - only license plates on cars, just like reg stickers on boats. We should toughen laws on criminal negligence instead of handing out traffic tickets when there are injury accidents. That'd help. What we do now does not.

Run your boat as if every other craft on the water is being driven by an insane, drunk maniac intent on homicide and you will both live longer and reduce the risk of your vessel being damaged (or worse).

 

[Paul45c]

Mandatory classes would be all about learning, right? You'd hope that a USPS-type course would give at least a bare bones primer on the right way to boat.

OK, flip back to high school, ladies & gents. You had requirements up the wazoo. Certain number of credits, certain number of maths, English/lit classes, sciences, etc. And then free electives to round out the schedule. I'll tell you my experience -- the courses I HAD to take because they were required I didn't necessarily retain much knowledge from. I probably got A's in them, but didn't retain it all that much. The courses I either liked or saw a real future need for I still remember much of.

The point? Someone being made to take the boater's test is not going to internalize the skills and judgment we all hold so dear to nearly the extent we hope they will, certainly not to the level of someone who volunteers to put themselves through USPS or equivalent. They're just going to get their ticket punched and file & forget the knowledge. Their loss, but a waste of time and money and gov't resources to all. I still vote no mandatory boater licensing.

 

[Boss Lady]

Well said Karl,

I agree you cannot legislate stupid and a whole lot of other things. I think that Darwin gets some of these people it is unfortunate that they sometimes take others with them. Airplanes are even less forgiving, so the stupid self eliminate much faster. When only the affluent had large boats things were a lot different. Even if they were idiots there were less things to bang into so the problem wasn't as apparent as it is now. With the increase in boat ownership we have a much larger cross section of stupid. Just like golf only the wealthy played and things were much more civil back then when there were only 2 million golfers, there was acceptable behavior at the club, now there is almost 25 million golfers and the public courses are like going to the zoo, you don't know what you will see there. I think our society as a whole has become rude, crude, and very self centered. This is reflected by the behavior on the water, I have seen inexperienced boaters waving at other boats to get out of the way, because they were not in control of their own boat! We are missing two important ingredients, PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and RESPONISIBLITY to OTHERS. I wish they would turn off the grid for about a month, and let DARWIN work for a while. After all the shooting and crying we might be able to return to a civil society. We have to stop subsidizing stupid. If we ever needed a license for anything it should be for having offspring. Be careful there're stupid out there and they are still breeding!

 

[Mike36c]

Karl, you said it. Being the almighty captain is an awesome and terrible thing. I get to stand in the tower and bark orders but everything is on my shoulders. There was a thread a while back about docking and I tell everyone on my boat: Do what I tell you and you're never wrong. With this they (the dock hands)are not nervous and docking most always goes smoothly (except for the ADD person who throws the stern line BEFORE I tell them ) I fly clients around the world and they count on me to best decisions, if we hit the dirt it's my fault. Everyone should take the helm seriously, the boat and all souls are the CAPTAIN'S responsibility.

 

[Walter P]

I've been following this thread for a few days and there are many very good arguments for and against mandatory training. I have seen many so called professional captains and very experienced (long time boaters) pull some really stupid stunts ---- so much for knowledge. I have been an active member of the U.S.Coast Guard Auxiliary for many years and am an active instructor at the public education classes. Twenty years ago the auxiliary (and the power squadren) ran 13 week safe boating classes which included Nav rules and Navigation among other subjects. I thought it was a pretty good course for most boaters and the participants (students) were there because THEY WANTED TO LEARN. Today we have 8 hr courses (including tests) and MOST of the participants are there because in NJ THEY HAVE TO HAVE A SAFE BOATERS CERTIFICATE. Although I would rather have the old system of 13 weeks I suppose 8 hrs is probably better than nothing.

I mostly agree with Genesis about the multiple levels of regulation that is supposed to SAVE us from ourselves. Driving a car or operating a boat is a right and a privlege (sp). So are many other things that we can no longer do because a group of our population are so well endowed with infinite knowledge about everything that can be bad for us and therefore we need to be protected. By the way did I mention that along the way we have gradually lost most of our freedoms. So far it has taken only 230 years. I hate to come back in another 230 years to see how well "protected" we have become. Every one of our original freedoms under the Bill of Rights has been violated. The First Amendment has probably held up better than the others because the press has so much power. I chuckle when some folks in the media make stupid comments that the NRA has so much muscle that we can't get gun laws passed. Our founding fathers (and mothers) are rolling in their graves with the abuses to our freedoms.

One of my favorite gripes is when we are asked for our Social Security number for just about everything. The Social Security Act was very specific in that our SS #'s were only to be for use by the Social Security Administration and the IRS. I don't want to get into the problems we now have with identity theft etc...

I don't have the answers but it seems to me that if we applied the Golden Rule to the way we operate our boats or drive our cars we would all be much better off. Most cases of road rage is because someone percieves that they have had their "right of way" violated. We have become a very competitive sociely and have been well trained Hooray for me the H..l with you. Even so called "Sports" emphasize WINNING IS EVERYTHING.

Want to have some real fun.... try driving your cars as though you are competing for a courtesy award of some kind. The smiles and waves (without the extended finger) are great and reallly make my day.

Walt

 

[Freebird]

Nav rules are very much at the center of this thread...
if you dont' want anyone to quote them, maybe you should consider not posting your inacurate interpretations.

Yesterday, 10:03 PM
(Nobody You Know)
Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 64

Re: Stupid Stupid Stupid

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Randy,

you obviously are a concerned and caring person. This thread does illustrate how much responsibility one undertakes when on the water. But it is about the "Rules".



I'm baaack. I bowed out of this discussion last night because I was losing my objectivity as this subject (innocent kids being killed, not rules of navigation) strikes a little too close to home for me. I would post more specifics as to why, but I would only lose my objectivity once again. Besides, I think we've heard enough horror stories. As I said before, this portion of the topic at hand is just too damn depressing.

It seems there are a number of members who share my feelings on mandatory boater education and licensing. The opposing members seem to feel this would serve no other purpose than to diminish their "freedom". This loss of freedom arguement on this subject and others simply baffles me. I'll catch hell for saying this, but I think maybe we have too much freedom in this country as it is. To wit, some "citizens" of this country have had the "freedom" to immigrate into this country under false pretenses. They then have the "freedom" to establish subcultures with the government's (mainly Democrats looking for EVERY possible vote) blessing. Now some of these groups have the "freedom" to launch attacks against us on our home soil. IMHO, our "freedom" in this country will be our ultimate demise as we will be eaten from the inside out. I know, I know, I've just gone off on a little tangent myself which is "off-topic", or is it?

Karl, forgive me, but the thought of doing away with driver's licenses is absurd. Hey, let's take this a little further regarding education in general. Let's quit making our kids go to school. Hell, we can teach them enough at home to get them through the basics in life. Let's face it, most of us with higher educations have forgotten half or more of what we learned in school ourselves unless it was something that carried over directly into our chosen profession. How many of you remember all the advanced math you took? Hell, I made straight A's in this stuff, and I couldn't do a "simple" algaebraic equation now if my life depended on it. That doesn't mean that the education I received isn't of value.

Someone hit it on the head when they said boaters would have to WANT to learn in order for boater education to be an asset to the boating community. I totally agree that education and licensing alone will not cure the problem. However, it will provide a basic education that will be of benefit to MOST of the participants who would pass a license exam. Whether or not they practice on the water what they were taught in school will be up to them. As it has been adequately pointed out, some "professional" captains show complete disregard for rules of navigation, and some just don't give a damn. Other captains do stupid things because they haven't taken the time or cared to learn proper piloting. Some do stupid things simply because, even though they have good intentions, they don't know any better. Mandatory boater education AND licensing would help this particular segment of the boating population. Other than taking up our valuable time and infringing on our "freedom", how could this possibly hurt?

In closing, I would like to direct your attention to the quotes appearing above this response. If you didn't know better, who of the two members responding would you think was a moderator on this site? Some members of this forum are a little too "correct" in their opinions and lose sight of the basic premise of a thread. Being correct on meaningless details (ie use of the term right of way) doesn't make a difference when that term is NOT relevant to the primary point being made in a particular thread. As I mentioned in a PM to another member, it would not surprise me for someone on this site to correct a member who would post a thread with a horror story of his son being shot by a "pirate" or drug dealer while on a cruise. If he said his son was killed with a .35 S&W, there would surely be someone who would respond to his thread by saying "there is no such thing as a .35 S&W, perhaps it was a .38?". I think you get my point. For that matter, I could respond to some threads and point out numerous misspellings (Hey Pascal, "inaccurate"), incorrect punctuation, and bad grammar among other things. Sure, I would be correct, but my pointing out those flaws would add nothing to the topic at hand, and would serve only to ridicule the author.

I hope everyone understands, the above is just one man's opinion. I sincerely hope it causes no offense. If it does, and you want to make it personal, send me a PM or better yet, give me a call. I'll even pay for the call at 1-800-251-9992.

 

[Freebird]

If we ever needed a license for anything it should be for having offspring. Be careful there're stupid out there and they are still breeding!

Hey Bubba,

I like your style! Move over here to Tennessee and I'll see to it you become our next governor!!! At the very least, I think you would be a prime candidate for Bubba's Safe Movin' School!!!

 

[Boss Lady]

Yea, Like a buddy of mine once said after an ugly divorce, the marriage license should cost you half your stuff up front, that way people might be more serious about getting married. Just think how choosy people would get if your new "bride" cost $50 grand! I bet you would shop your ass off and read all the magazines and forums before making that purchase. LOL

 

[Freebird]

I bet you would shop your ass off and read all the magazines and forums before making that purchase.

You mean I wasn't supposed to have done that?

 

[Gunsmoke]

Mandatory boating courses, IMHO, has nothing to do with being regulated.
The fact is that I'd rather be surrounded by boaters that have at least taken ONE course, than facing one big boat with a clueless Captain.
When I purchased my first boat about 15 years ago, I was clueless, but didn't know it. I got by, being reasonably cautious, but I was certainly a danger to another boater, because I didn't know who had right of way, or even buoy info. I wasn't a bad guy, but I didn't even know there WERE rules.

After watching me dock my 33, a boat owning bystander, suggested to me to take a boating course. I had no idea there was a boating course. Two months later, I took a basic course, and realized I had been a danger to my own family. That was UNNACEPTABLE! Three years later, I took the course again, and then took an advanced nav course. Not because I had to, but because I wanted to. There are only TWO ways to be a safer boater, and know at least some rules. Take a boating course, or learn by experience, with someone who knows. The third route is the school of hard knocks, and that is what started this thread. If I ever lost a member of my family, thru lack of knowledge on the water, I would blow my brains out.

I agree with many of you that some boaters don't give a damn, and they will get a sorry lesson someday. On the other hand, I could do everything right in a collision, and still get nailed. BUTTTT, at least I would have a fighting chance to avoid it, if I had a clue about the regs. A lot of you guys are so experienced, and have been boating safely for so many years, you might have forgotten when you learned some of these rules.
Who taught you RR return, and what #s and letters meant on cans or nuns, or how to read a chart? Did you know how to anchor correctly when you were born, or did someone teach you? How did you know what fire extinguishers, or flares MUST be on your boat, or the differences between PFD's? I didn't have anyone with these answers in the beginning. I just went out and bought a boat. I'm lucky I didn't kill anyone, and I can assure you, it would have been ALL my fault.
So guys, PLEASE don't jump on the licensing, big brother, no more rights, stuff, so fast. There is a need out there for a lot of boaters to be FORCED to take these classes. Not by the GOV, but by us.
Let the speed jerks, and drunks, be stupid, because stupid is as stupid does, but there are a lot of innocent good guys out there that just never learned boating basics.
I am so grateful that I can come on this site, with the most knowledgeable and friendly people that I have never met, who are willing to share their time and expertise with underlings like me. That's why I would have thought you guys would INSIST on others knowing what you know.
BTW: I am as far right on the political scale as you can get, but IMHO forced education would save lives. (even one is important)
regards
steve

 

[Paul45c]

So guys, PLEASE don't jump on the licensing, big brother, no more rights, stuff, so fast. There is a need out there for a lot of boaters to be FORCED to take these classes. Not by the GOV, but by us.
Let the speed jerks, and drunks, be stupid, because stupid is as stupid does, but there are a lot of innocent good guys out there that just never learned boating basics.steve

Steve, the fact that you can move yourself to do such a responsible thing as get into the boater's class with just one subtle push from a dockside spectator proves that you are indeed one of the good guys. But, further to a point I was making earlier, YOU'VE GOT TO WANT TO DO IT AND LEARN in order to get anything out of the course(s). You clearly had 100% the right intent, and P.S., you learned; as a result, you're a better, safer and more confident boater. I wish they were all like you, buddy. The sad fact is that they're not. I think whatever funds and red tape that get thrown at it will just be totally wasted.

And believe me, I'm 100% in favor of taking the courses. I did, and I know I'm a better boater for it.

 

[Gunsmoke]

Paul: I can't believe that anyone that takes their loved one's boating in a crowded marina, or out in the deep blue, would not take at least a basic course on their own. But, we know that it happens everyday. A simpleton with a big check book, driving a 60 footer, without a clue is dangerous to his own passengers. My biggest concern is the danger to me and mine. If he was FORCED to take a class, maybe he would say faggetaboutit, and go play golf.
Orrr, maybe after at least one class, he would know what NO WAKE means, and if I'm passing his bow from his starboard to port, out there, I have the right of way. He might even learn to sound in fog, and slow down.

Consider the Book of Karl for a moment. I believe it should be required reading.
However, most boaters will never acess this site, so they have to settle for second best, such as the Coast Guard, or power squadron. I'll bet if Genesis gave a course on engine mechanics, plenty of guys would sign up. I know I would. I think Karl should force us to take his course, and I would pay every penny, and come out way ahead of the game.
It can be pretty scary out yonder when your engines take a snooze, and the admiral wants to know how long it will be until you fix your broken boat.

My daughter will be graduating from Rutgers next year, and after my wife and I payed thousands for tuition, and books, etc, for the last four years, when I ask her what she wants to do with all this info she's aquired, her response is "I Dunno"
You can bet that when I find my "Break out another thousand" dream boat, she will be forced to take a basic course. She will be shown every aspect of safe boating that I can muster.Then when I ask my daughter what she wants to do with the rest of her life, she can say, "You know Dad, I'd like to try being a Charter Boat Captain.
regards
steve

 

[Paul45c]

I hope you do get your daughter into a boating class. I got one of mine (a 14-year-old who wanted the freedom to run around in our Zodiac tender alone) to do it, and she really enjoyed the experience. Turning your daughter into a charter cap'n would be a bonus! Following seas.

 

[egaito]

I hope you do get your daughter into a boating class. I got one of mine (a 14-year-old who wanted the freedom to run around in our Zodiac tender alone) to do it, and she really enjoyed the experience. Turning your daughter into a charter cap'n would be a bonus! Following seas.

Ditto for my daughter...she is the proud owner of a refurbished 10ft, 10hp hard bottom Avon. She was extremely proud of passing the course, especially because two of the other kids in the class did not, and tells me stories about her adventures, especially proud of the ones about the un-educated boaters she encounters, and avoids.

 

[Freebird]

Orrr, maybe after at least one class, he would know what NO WAKE means, and if I'm passing his bow from his starboard to port, out there, I have the right of way.

regards
steve

Hey Steve,

I can't believe you got away with using the term "right of way" without being corrected!

What's your secret?

 

[Gunsmoke]

Randy:
Apparently, the less educated, but well intentioned, get some mercy.

 

[Freebird]

Randy:
Apparently, the less educated, but well intentioned, get some mercy.

Hey Bubba,

I'm living proof that this is NOT your secret! I'm obviously a bigger target on "someone's" radar screen. To that end, sit back and watch this one disappear!

Have a nice day!