Stupid Stupid Stupid

[Genesis]

Disagree entirely.

My evidence is the charter captains - all of which have USCG Licenses - and which, in my experience, are just as bad as the "Weekend warriors".

It'll just be another tax, and will not do a THING for our safety.

Keep the government out of it.

 

[Freebird]

Disagree entirely.

Okay Pooh-Bear, you win. I give up!

 

[mstailey]

Before I posted this I thought long and hard about doing so but hearing of this incident really bugged me. I can't put my finger on it as to why - maybe because a child was lost, or it's the area I do my boating in but then it hit me.

We need to take stock when we hear about these terrible things.

There are arguments, pro and con, for licensing, classes etc; and if it gives us the knowledge to be better when piloting a boat that's a good thing.

Would you all not agree?

But it's not the answer.

I'm in agreement with Karl(Genesis) and Pascal - both boats share the blame and as I just wrote that statement it hit me -

Why this one really bugged me was the kid had no say - it was the captains of the 2 boats who were responsible for that child. Period.

So my point is -

It's up to each and every one of us to understand what the rules are, how they are applied and when to use them -or not-. Licencing is NOT the answer - WE are the answer.

There is no such thing as right-of-way when a collision occurs. The things I've learned on the water is to be responsible to ourself and our loved ones and to put as much distance between us and the moron that is near us doing really stupid things with a boat reguardless of "the rules"

And last but not least (boy am I going to get heat for this) if you drink and pilot a boat - PLEASE STOP DOING SO.

If not sooner or later you, your loved ones or the "other guy", if they survive, get to meet people like Dr. Jim Rosenthal and they won't be discussing Hatts with you....

 

[Freebird]

And last but not least (boy am I going to get heat for this) if you drink and pilot a boat - PLEASE STOP DOING SO.

It may be last, but it is certainly not least. I think I've made my views on this subject abundantly clear. I've joked around a lot on this site about drinking. Truth be told, I am a "week-end warrior" type light social drinker. But I do on occasion have one too many. However, as previously stated, I never operate my boat or car when I know I may be a little impaired. It is simply not worth the risk.

Loss of life is certainly the most tragic consequence of operating any vehicle under the influence. That should be reason enough not to do it. But if you need something else to consider, consider this. Should you be cited for BUI/DUI, consider what is going to happen to your insurance rates on ALL your toys! Consider spending time in jail. Consider losing your license for a year. All these things happen here in Tennessee even for a first time offender. If this is not enough incentive to do your drinking while you are on the hook or tied to the dock, consider something else. Consider the original purpose of this thread. Consider what it would be like to have to live with the fact that you cost an innocent young boy his life.

Is catching a "little buzz" and driving your boat worth the risk of ruining your life and the lives of others? If the answer is anything other than NO, seek help!

 

[MarioG]

As tragic as this story is, sadly it's happened before and it will happen again.But there is a lesson to be learned in tragedies like these. Some people learn the lesson the hard way, others learn from someone else's mistake, some will simply will ignore them. but nothing beats a lesson that strikes close to home. How do I know?

13 or 14 years ago I use to pump fuel at a local general aviation airport trying to earn some extra change for flight lessons. I sometimes helped out at a maintenance shop that was at the hangar next to the place I worked. I new the owner of the maintenance shop, we had the same boating interests, he had a 22' open fisherman. We became good friends. Nice guy, quiet, got me out a jam once or twice towing a plane.

One Friday around closing time, he tells me that he's leaving in the morning to cruise Biscayne Bay with his family. returning to Dinner key at night in a marked channel, he was T-boned by a 30 something foot Fountain that was hauling AZZ and cutting across the channel that lead into Dinner Key. the speed boat impacted his boat right at the center console killing him and his wife instantly. the impact was so hard that his boat was literally split in half by the speed boat. His 14 year old son was also killed by the impact, his 7 year old daughter was ejected from the boat, she was unconscious and unresponsive when she was rescued by another boat. Never recovering from her coma, she died 3 days later. The people in the speedboat suffered a few cuts and bruises, they where legally drunk.

The court found the speed boat driver guilty of 4 counts manslaughter and got a few years in jail. the court also determined that my friend was also responsible for not avoiding the accident.


I still remember him, but more importantly I remember the lesson he and his family taught me that one night on the bay.

A whole family gone.

 

[GaryNW]

I experienced firsthand what a real captain does and it took me decades to actually appreciate it. I was 19, he was 50-ish and his command was a destroyer. Oh, and he was a Merchant Marine academy grad. He used to drive us nuts by forcing us to keep a plot on every bayliner, not to mention real traffic. Us young sailors figured we've got the guns, why can't we just blow the fools out of the water! When we entered Puget Sound for a rare wartime visit away from our home port of San Diego, he found out I had local knowledge and I was made to stand next to him on the bridge for the entire trip in. As always he was right as I was able to tell him of the upcoming ferry traffic, etc. But it was no fun!
Gary

 

[Freebird]

The court found the speed boat driver guilty of 4 counts manslaughter and got a few years in jail. the court also determined that my friend was also responsible for not avoiding the accident.

Even considering the seriousness of this subject, I don't want to beat this one to death. It's too damn depressing. However, the law concerning such an accident needs to be changed. I know I'm going to be corrected, and it won't be the last time. But there should be a narrower definition of fault in accidents such as this where there is such a huge difference in speed between two boats involved in a collision.

If a boat is traveling at 2-3 times the speed of yours, even when perfectly legal to do so, how the hell are you supposed to get out of the way? This just doesn't make sense. The faster boat should bare the responsibility in such a collision. I know that in a passing situation, the slower boat has the right of way (I know, I know, forget the terminology). It just adds insult to injury when something like this happens.

 

[Pascal]

in a passing (overtaking) situation, the faster vessel needs to keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken... but the vessel being overtaken doesn't really have the right of way as it is still supposed to maintain course and speed. ...that's one VERY important detail.

maintaining a proper look out means that you need to be aware of every vessel approaching yours, even if you are the stand on vessel. There is nothign wrong with that.... If you are on a slower vessel, you need to react sooner and take action as needed, including assuming the other guy hasn't seen you because his night vision and judgment is impaired.

 

[Freebird]

in a passing (overtaking) situation, the faster vessel needs to keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken... but the vessel being overtaken doesn't really have the right of way as it is still supposed to maintain course and speed. ...that's one VERY important detail.

ATTENTION ALL REG QUOTERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How many more times are we going to miss the boat as to the intent of this thread??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

This thread was not entitled "Looking for Interpretations on Rules of Navigation"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The only "one VERY important detail" in this whole thread is AN INNOCENT BOY DIED as the result of SOMEONE ELSE'S carelessness, NOT HIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Enough Said (but I doubt it) :confused

P.S. Pascal, please don't be offended. This is directed at ALL REG QUOTERS
as per the caption above.

 

[ThirdHatt]

Randy,

FYI: Each post under a particular thread may not deal DIRECTLY with the exact thread opener. The thread is an opening to a discussion directly related to the thread. I have seen you post several times about posts (sometimes pages into a thread) not directly adressing the original thread and I think you should lighten up a bit.

This particular thread is indeed about an innocent boy's life being lost, but it directly relates to discussions of rules of navigation. Don't feel that you have to post a reply to nearly every post under a thread, relax and read a while! Sometimes it's better to LISTEN than to speak. You'll be surprised at what you may learn!

 

[egaito]

ATTENTION ALL REG QUOTERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How many more times are we going to miss the boat as to the intent of this thread??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

This thread was not entitled "Looking for Interpretations on Rules of Navigation"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL, I guess your thread was hijacked!

 

[Freebird]

Third Hatt,

Not sure if I was supposed to respond, sorry if you feel it was inappropriate. Sorry to offend you, this subject (kids being killed by drunks) is just a sore spot with me. Just didn't think it was appropriate to take this in any other direction. That's just my opinion. Sorry if I overstated it.

 

[ThirdHatt]

Randy,

No problem but that was exactly my point, the thread WAS NOT taken in any other direction. Rules of navigation pertaining to how to avoid accidents and who is responsible, etc is DIRECTLY RELATED to the accident. That is what threads are for, to discuss things related to the original thread, hence an accident happens and you immediately look at the rules to see what happened. That's what the USCG did the second they were onsite, you can bet. Directly related to the accident, and to the original thread.

 

[Pascal]

Nav rules are very much at the center of this thread...

if you dont' want anyone to quote them, maybe you should consider not posting your inacurate interpretations.

 

[Freebird]

Nav rules are very much at the center of this thread...

if you dont' want anyone to quote them, maybe you should consider not posting your inacurate interpretations.

I give up.

 

[egaito]

I give up.

What? YOU, give up?

The bottom line is everyone is sorry for the kid, a completely innocent victim in this case.

The question is, should be feel sorry for dad, or kick his a#@? That's where the discussion on the rules, his knowledge of them, and his attention to his surroundings come in.

 

[Genesis]

EXACTLY.

Thank you ED!

If you are the captain and you are involved in a collision, drunk or not, awake or sleeping at the wheel, fishing, trolling, or anything else-ing, you are almost CERTAINLY at least partially at fault.

If you cannot deal with this and operate you vessel with this in mind, then you need to get off the water - because unlike a car, there is no such thing as "not at fault", and you, as master of your vessel, are ethically, morally and legally responsible for all souls aboard!

The point that you seem to be missing Randy is that both operators are responsible here - even if only one was intoxicated (and it doesn't matter which one was!) The kid was an innocent victim - but there is a near 100% certainty that neither operators were.

Driving defensively on the road can keep you from being dead or smashing your car but usually isn't required to keep you from being held responsible for a collision. THIS IS NOT TRUE ON THE WATER. Failure to operate defensively AT ALL TIMES will almost certainly EVENTUALLY lead you to being held responsible for your lack of doing so.

 

[Mike36c]

I must chime in...... We still don't know who was intoxicated or if ANYONE WAS!, it does not matter to the young boy either The bottom line: A very unfortunate situation. Let's pay attention and hope this never happens to anyone on this site.

 

[(Nobody You Know)]

Randy,

you obviously are a concerned and caring person. This thread does illustrate how much responsibility one undertakes when on the water. But it is about the "Rules".

I hope this is a ray of light: All boaters are required to deviate from the Rules (and holding course and speed) if it is the only way to avoid collision. However, allowing that we lack all details of the original thread, fair to say The Rules cover just about every possible scenario on the water. AND I have been encouraged by cases where a perpetrator of a serious accident is found guilty of violating one or more of the rules which, hence, resulted in tradgedy. Which is to say, for example, if you run too fast for conditions, fail to honor a (the) Stand-on vessel (which must hold course and speed - to a point) and all this while BUI-ing, and cause a serious accident, you got a fat chance that they "gonna put you under a jail". And while the other vessel has a responsibillity to "take all measures to avoid collision" he may not necessarily be penalized. It gets down to one of those judge and jury things.

Also, I am convinced that while mandatory boater education will not completely solve the problem it WILL make a noticible impact on the number of serious boating accidents we incur each year. I know we continue to have accidents on our roads, but remove the mandatory requirement for driver's licenses and see what happens. I also abhor another infringement on my liberty, but there was a time when the first cars were produced and no one thought about driver's licensing. Then things got complicated. And that's exactly where we are today with boating.

I boat in a high population area considering the many skinny channels and no open water. On any given Saturday afternoon when everybodys been boozin all day the VHF rhetoric deteriorates to "expletives deleted" and the folks in small jon boats are particularly at risk.

Hope this scenario doesn't repeat itself, but I'm afraid...

Capt'n Bill

 

[Mike36c]

Sorry Bill, With all due respect, All the folks with DUI's HAD a driver's license at one time or another, that didn't stop them. One can't legislate common sense.