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repowers & Hatt future values

  • Thread starter Thread starter Paul45c
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"Some boats are not a bargain even if someone gave it to you..."

Boy, is that ever true. Many years ago I looked at a boat in Florida- a 44' Striker that had been left behind someone's house, plugged into shore power, sitting in salt water, with no maintenance, no changes of zincs, etc etc. It was proven to me with the aid of a calculator that even as a gift- delivered free- this boat was an instant ticket to financial ruin. Even starting from NO investment, the amount of money that was required to bring this boat back to running safe cosmetically acceptable condition was way more than she would be worth. Only if you owned a boatyard that was experienced with metal boats could you even hope to possible break even. And if you had to hire the work done, you would be instantly upside down the day you took ownership of the boat (and the boat took ownership of you).

I've thought about that many times. It is very easy to get totally inverted financially with no hope of righting oneself in old boats. We are relatively lucky here- Hatteras yachts are worth something if kept up. Or, put another way, it is slightly more difficult to go broke doing a stem-to-stern top-to-bottom restoration in a Hatteras compared to other makes of boats. You might even come out even, or slightly ahead. It's been done.
 
I think I will have a boat when finished if commision today would cost in excess of $1,000,000, but I will have only a third of that invested. Part of it is the fact that the yard where the boat is very realistic, so far they have been very fair to us, and I bought the new engines and transmissions from them with installation, great price (Swan Point Marina) and my shipwright is a good businessman as well, they want repeat business, and offer excellent service and very fair prices. Plus everyone involved really likes what they do and it shows. Star Carpentry has really done all the heavy lifting on this. Paul constantly beats up all the vendors to get good prices, and passes the savings along to me as well. Sam's has provided many things including the new seacocks for the engines, and Slane Marine provided the new battery boxes and fiberglass bow sprit. Paul is building a very nice business and knows I will be a repeat customer, and treats me accordingly, this is highly unusual to find in the boat industry today, someone who you know goes the extra mile to provide high quality and good prices. All this makes a huge difference when it comes to owning a boat. What most yards and service providers do is try to take advantage of your predicament, since there are few choices when it comes to getting things done, most of them have a take it or leave it attitude, and wait like vultures for you to agree to the work. Most of us figure out how to do a lot of our own work just to stay away from the crooks. If you are looking for a good place to have work done you need to bring your boat to here. Plus you can visit the Hatteras factory, Sam's and Slane's all in one visit.
 
You're right Chris.

I've known how to build gas engines and such for a long time - started with a Camaro that I bought wrecked from a buddy very cheaply when I was in high school, and did a couple of small engines (minibike, motorcycle) before that. Got "hands dirty" lessons in both engine rebuilding and body/frame work in a hurry on that one. I drove that thing until the wheels literally fell off. It was a great car and I loved it. Funny thing was, I never had to fix anything on that or any other car I owned more than once.....

I ended up taking the "get hands greasy" road with my boats because I got tired of being bent over the table every time I tried to spend money instead of time. I don't mind spending money - so long as the job is done right the first time. The problem of course is that it often isn't when you pay someone else.

When manufacturers, dealers and yards wonder where the business is going and why there is quite a bit of stagnation in the market, they have only themselves to blame. You only get raped a certain number of times before you either pick up the toolbox yourself or give up and sell the boat, perhaps exiting the marine market entirely.

I'm too stubborn to walk away...... :D

This is the virtue of Detroits, really. Someone with half a clue and a decent idea of how to use tools can maintain and even overhaul them. This is simply not true for a lot of the newfangled motors - in many cases you can't get the tools (e.g. proprietary software) you need to check and maintain them at all. Never mind what happens if one of them shuts down on you in an inlet when you've got 30kt onshore winds and an outgoing 5kt tide!
 
Karl, I concur with you also, on the Detroits, there is enough information available and these engines have been around so long that it is not voodoo or rocket science to keep them running. It really annoyes me that the people in the diesel business act like they have been "annointed by the marine diesel gods" and therefore you must pay a huge tithe or else your little boat with not be fixed. There is absolutely no excuse for shoddy repair work on a Detroit other than complete incompetence or out right theft. A chimpanze can be trained to repair a DD. Most of the times that I have had a Diesel mechanic show up at the marina, I was terrified because 5 minutes into the conversation I realized I knew more than he did and this is supposedly how he makes a living, YIKES! Most mechanics only want to work on trucks or on the bench. I can understand that, it can be tough work and most boats are not fun to work on. I also think a certain element has found that they can earn a living misrepresenting themselves as marine diesel mechanics and simply use a mobile truck and toolbox as props in ripping people off. I think a few things contribute to this problem. Boat owners do not know BS when they hear it and they will believe anything if it means getting to play with their toy (boat). I would encourage everyone to go visit a real diesel shop and then compare that to what shows up at the dock! On the repower issue, anything other than Detroits, the jury is still out. The smart money is to just rebuild what you have, or replace with higher HP Detroits, until the direct injection market place sorts itself out with the technology and the customer support aspects that are needed for boat owners.
 
Boss Lady said:
I think I will have a boat when finished if commision today would cost in excess of $1,000,000, but I will have only a third of that invested. Part of it is the fact that the yard where the boat is very realistic, so far they have been very fair to us, and I bought the new engines and transmissions from them with installation, great price (Swan Point Marina) and my shipwright is a good businessman as well, they want repeat business, and offer excellent service and very fair prices. Plus everyone involved really likes what they do and it shows. Star Carpentry has really done all the heavy lifting on this. Paul constantly beats up all the vendors to get good prices, and passes the savings along to me as well. Sam's has provided many things including the new seacocks for the engines, and Slane Marine provided the new battery boxes and fiberglass bow sprit. Paul is building a very nice business and knows I will be a repeat customer, and treats me accordingly, this is highly unusual to find in the boat industry today, someone who you know goes the extra mile to provide high quality and good prices. All this makes a huge difference when it comes to owning a boat. What most yards and service providers do is try to take advantage of your predicament, since there are few choices when it comes to getting things done, most of them have a take it or leave it attitude, and wait like vultures for you to agree to the work. Most of us figure out how to do a lot of our own work just to stay away from the crooks. If you are looking for a good place to have work done you need to bring your boat to here. Plus you can visit the Hatteras factory, Sam's and Slane's all in one visit.
Click to expand...

I wish I was having my spray rails re-done there. Where is Swan Point marina?

Bob
 
bobk said:
I wish I was having my spray rails re-done there. Where is Swan Point marina?

Bob
Click to expand...

Eastern N.C. about midway between Wilmington and Morehead City. "Boss" is not the first boater I know to give a good reportcard on Swan's workmanship.

BTW, something tells me that in a few short years, in spite of present wide spread usage of DDs, parts and qualified mechanics are going to become a really big problem. Factor in the shelf life of parts available now as well as those performing on moderately used engines and the outlook is not all that good. At least not for the long run.

The good news - what little there is - is that the really (few) good yards are becoming more profecient at repowering. The key down the road is to watch who emerges as the most reputable at this trade. Also, any boater willing and in need of repowering with todays diesels stands to gain more power, less weight, and more bilge space (aforementioned problems withstanding).

Capt'n Bill

"The most important things in life aren't things."
Unknown
 
You can buy engine parts today for Vincent Black Shadow motorcycles - there were only around 1800 made and the last one was made in 1955 when Vincent went out of business. With the God-knows-how-many DD two strokes made, I can't imagine any scenario whereby DD engine parts won't be available for any future that any of us here will have to worry about. Even if DD doesn't make/supply them, it doesn't matter at all - Vincent doesn't make the parts you can buy for the B Shadow either.
 
Yep.

Federal makes DD parts, and likely will until the last engine stops rotating.

Their stuff is excellent quality too - I'd have no quarrel with using their cylinder kits over "genuine" ones, for example. None whatsoever.
 
If Detroit stopped making parts it would be the dumbest thing of the year. There will be plenty of other manufacturers who would step into the void before Detroit could say BOO!
 
Swan Point is in Sneads Ferry, NC which is near Jacksonville. Swan Point did the repower. Paul at Star Carpentry did the lift rails and all the other work on Boss Lady. So if you go to the website you can see it all. The new stainless windows are almost here and will go in shortly. Swan Point may paint the hull, but they want to use Awl Grip and I do not, so we are negotiating on the type of paint. They have done several repowers since I have been in the yard, my engines came out of a Bertram that they put MTUs' in.
 
Okay, so a great majority of you love your DD's, and apparently would rebuild them (for a number of valid reasons) over repowering. But, what if you were in my shoes and had Cummins VT903M's....Coast Guard and military in Iraq are still running these engines, so parts, although expensive, are still available. They are completely mechanical engines, so no computers to go south at the wrong time...but they yield about a 15-17 knot cruise in a 42 sport fisher....what would YOU do???
 
Well, are you satisfied with the speed? If not, then you repower. What other options do you have?

I'd look into what a set of Cummins 6cs would do in terms of performance improvement, especially if you can get mechanical factory remans. If that's not enough, then the M11 series is your only other rational choice (or the Cat equivalent), both of which are going to be stupid expensive.
 
which engines do you have now 6-71s? What other detroits will fit in the engine room? I had 8v71s 330 HP 17 knots wide open and switched to 8v92s 735 HP and looking at 25 kts cruise. If you dont have the room you will have to look at something besides detroits.
 
Genesis said:
Well, are you satisfied with the speed? If not, then you repower. What other options do you have?

I'd look into what a set of Cummins 6cs would do in terms of performance improvement, especially if you can get mechanical factory remans. If that's not enough, then the M11 series is your only other rational choice (or the Cat equivalent), both of which are going to be stupid expensive.
Click to expand...

6C's were a good fit in my boat (41C). PO reaplaced and re-hatched the soloon sole to make access easy. I never saw her with her old engines, but these look like they belong down there.

I have no way of knowing what a rebuild of your current engines would run, but from what I've seen of 6C reman prices, they're not a horribly expensive option.

They're smoky, and have a few other quirks, like weak water pumps, but I'm happy with the way they run.

They push this hull to 27+kts (at which point she's getting a little flakey at the helm) with low tanks, and cruises her at 22 fully loaded.

I think repowers on these SF's are a bit different in their overall economic impact. The engines to repower Sanctuary (58 MY) would certainly be more expensive, but more important than that, would include major surgery to install, driving the cost up significantly, where in the SF, they can pretty much be "dropped in" through saloon.
 
Are the 6Cs available as "remans" like my 370Ds were "remans", which are in fact new engines but with a reman part or two in them, with FFW and extendable to 5 yrs? If so, this would be a good deal for a 42C. At least you need that much power, and M11s would be better. And there are no earlier equivalent of the M11s- they were the start of the new Cummins common-rail line AFAIK.
 
For the past year, I have settled on searching for a 58TC originally equipped with the DD12V71N engines. However, my plan after purchase is to repower the boat with the CAT C-15's which would provide a great deal of versatility as to cruising speeds while at the same time providing a significant increase in fuel economy. At the recent Ft. Lauderdale Boat show, I was at the CAT booth and on the data plate was actually written that the version I was looking at was expected to achieve 10,000 hours before overhauling. This is their latest offering, known as the ACERT series and is the most powerful of the C-15s. There are two versions.

Why am I inclined to go through this exercise? Very simply by speaking with the gents at Florida Detroit Diesel Allison, MTU has decided to close out all
former DD equipment in favor of the new 2000 series. As a replacement to the 71 and 92 series engines, a new line of Mercedes inspired engines will come on line where anything to do with the older DD's will be stopped. This time line is scheduled for sometime WITHIN the next 5 years. Already, I am told that many parts are no longer available on the 71's. This came from the DD people in NC. Try this for yourselves. Call DD in Detroit and see how far you can get with the new crowd. I tried and I got nowhere, not even a spec sheet. The spec sheets were ordered to be destroyed in 1999 by MTU. Microfiche doesnt even exist on these old engines. I hope this clarifies the above posts as to the true reality of the situation of these old 2 strokes.

AquaNav77
 
Hi Aquanav,

That is very good information to know. I can understand part of their motivation, they want to sell higher profit products. What I don't understand is how they can walk away from the installed base. Talk about residual income! I am sure that the aftermarket will react to this and probably three new vendors will enter the market that Detroit is abandoning. Profit is a good motivator. Also, they have long standing contracts with the US Army on several truck programs that will be with us for at least the next 10 years and the 8v92 is the current installed power. So there will be plenty of business for who ever wants to get it. Just look at what has happened with the automotive restoration industry. You can build you favorite car now from brand new parts including sheet metal. The aftermarket has produced more Hemi engines than Chrysler could have imagined. Carol Shelby made a few Cobras, the aftermarket builds thousands of clones every year. Brake rotors for one of my cars were $120 from Ford, two years later they were $20 each. The ability for the aftermarket to fill a void is amazing. Hell, I might even go for a piece of this action. LOL With the proliferaton of CNC machinery and CAD/CAM even I can make a cylinder head nowadays. Now if you require some type of factory support then of course you are screwed. But like I have said before, this is not rocket science. Buyers of new equipment will not have a choice, they will have to go with the new offerings, from trucks to yachts. My comments about the new iron, mainly are to encourage anyone looking to really do your homework, to avoid having major problems. My perspective is that they all have warts, so until the technology turns into cinderella, you should take the available user experiences and ask a lot of questions to make sure they have been resolved to your satisfaction. With the cost of repower and installation being what it is, most people would consider it a major investment, while a few would think $200-300K is small change. Also there are differences between companies in the way they approach customer service "after" the sale. I tend to be choosy who I give my money to, since I work hard for it.

cheers!
 
I've heard the same thing about the 53s and 71s, and parts for some 53 series engines have been tough to get for a while.

92s, however, I've had zero trouble with, and given that they're considered "current" in an awful lot of places, I don't expect to see that happen in the 92 market for a while.

Besides, like I said, Federal still makes parts and as far as I know has no intention of abandoning it - they like green dollar bills and they're not an OEM so they've got no incentive to orphan people!
 
Cat may be able to make a 10,000 hr. engine, and I really hope that they can. But I'm from Missouri, and they will have to show me.

As to service, I've bought three Onan generators. Four counting the one that came with Fanfare. I understand that stuff gets old and I can't expect manufacturers to support obsolete stuff forever. Two years ago my Onan developed a leak in the high-pressure fuel system and I couldn't fix it. I probably made 15 long distance calls to various service departments and to Onan. I didn't get the promised call backs--not one. (I flew to Florida and got the replacement fuel line from a junk yard and flew back.) When I got back to the states I bought a new generator. Guess what? It's not an Onan. So much for 40 years of brand loyalty.

On DD, I reengined my old V8-71s with V6-92TAs and new transmissions in 1993, largely because Jack Hargrave told me it would be the best way at that time. The new engines have been almost trouble free and seem to be even more rugged than the 71s. The Twin Disc transmissions are a real improvement over the Allisons. So I would surely rebuild these instead of replacing them today. I spent a year thinking and talking with engineers, naval architects and mechanics before deciding to repower. It was really a hassle even though it worked out well. Did the fuel economy improve? Maybe, but it was lost in the rounding. A modern engine might be better, but you wil never pay for this improvement in fuel savings. DD wanted me to get the then-new DDEC computer engine controls. Fortunately I didn't or I probably wouldn't be so happy. I believe there were three later iterations of the DDEC system before they dropped it. Bear in mind that the purpose of these computers is primarily to meet govt. emission controls--the fuel efficiency is just a fortunate byproduct for the consumer.

It is only possible to go up a certain amount in horsepower without requiring thicker, stronger shafts, which need wider shaft tunnels. The more power you get the more fuel you will burn per hour. Your range decreases. At some point this means bigger fuel tanks, changing the weight and balance of the boat. So at some time there is a point of diminishing returns.
 
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