repowers & Hatt future values

[jim rosenthal]

I agree completely, and Jim is in as good a position as any of us to make opinions on this as they bought their boat NEW from Hatteras and still have it, which has got to be a record. You get to the point of diminishing returns really quickly when you are stuffing horsepower into an old hull design. It rapidly ceases to make any sense as you go up the curve.

There's a point on the curve where you do get impressive results- the Series II 45 boats that got big Cat and Cummins sixes have done really well with them- but I don't think you can get much beyond that without huge investment for very little.

As far as Cat telling you that you will get 10,000 hours from anything they build- help me to stop laughing. Tell them to put it in writing- they won't. I know all the new Hatteras Yachts have Cat engines. Well, there's not a lot of folks in the market up at that end of the horsepower range- it's Cat or DD/MTU and now we know what they're doing. You might look at Luggers in that power range- they really do last 10,000 hrs and there are all sorts of commercial watermen in the Gulf of Alaska who will testify to it.

 

[Boss Lady]

Well said Dr. Jim, well said!

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Most of Cat's commercial engines in their off-road equipment usually go 20,000hrs plus between overhauls, but marine engines are all together different. If you derate them down to that level, you'll get the hours, but not the performance. It's the usual trade off and don't expect Cat can do it any better than anyone else.

 

[Boss Lady]

They turn the power down so far that they will last forever. Even the DDEC "Silver" High Output 8v92 is only rated for 450 HP in industrial service, the same engine is max rated for marine duty at 765 HP. So if you put things in perspective, the hot rodded marine engines are the most demanding of a given design. The reliability and ruggedness of the Detroit 2-strokes have set the bar very high in the marine industry, and the 4-stroke boys have gotten a bloody nose trying to rival this coming out the gate. I don't think they were expecting the problems they have encountered in this market space. I expect that part of the problems with the electronic programming for these engines is that they have them ratcheted down so tight to prevent failures that the engine management systems shut everything down at the slightest hint of an abnormality. if I was at corporate with this situation I would have to figure out how to keep a $150,000 engine from becoming a hand grenade also. No easy task to be competive on performance, keep the customer happy, and not get eaten alive on warranty repairs.

 

[Genesis]

Short answer - "there is no substitute for displacement"

 

[Tawney1]

Well, based on all the great comments, I have about concluded to rebuild the our 71TIs. When I talked to the guys at Covington Diesel in Beaufort and got the rebuild quote, I was told the DD rebuild parts might be a little tough to get. The guy at Covington indicated that they would order the parts for one engine first, get started, and then order the parts for the other as it could take a few weeks. I thought that a little odd, but seems to echo some of the comments made earlier in this thread.

If there is currently no shortage of DD parts, what gives? Does this make sense? If so, that is of concern.

Has anyone had any experience with Covington? I'd appreciate any comments or suggestions for other shops/yards in the New Bern/Beaufort area.

Thanks,
Paul

 

[Genesis]

I don't know what Covington intends to do, but under no circumstances should they order kits until they've completed the teardown and measurement process.

This does not apply to a 92 series engine, but it does to a 6-71, as the cylinder liners are an interference fit. There is a whole set of high-precision measurements you have to take of each bore before you can order the correct kits - this is not a case of "one size fits all", at least not if you'd like more than 500 hours of those rebuilds! It is highly likely that the correct kits will not be the "standard" for all the holes.

 

[Tawney1]

Does that also hold true for 12-71s?

Paul

 

[Genesis]

All 71-series are dry liner (unless I missed something important somewhere )

 

[Rickysa]

I ended up taking the "get hands greasy" road with my boats because I got tired of being bent over the table every time I tried to spend money instead of time. I don't mind spending money - so long as the job is done right the first time. The problem of course is that it often isn't when you pay someone else.

When manufacturers, dealers and yards wonder where the business is going and why there is quite a bit of stagnation in the market, they have only themselves to blame. You only get raped a certain number of times before you either pick up the toolbox yourself or give up and sell the boat, perhaps exiting the marine market entirely.

Which is precisely why I'm taking a week off to do the "owner's" DD class in Fla...to be followed by the complete tear-down class as soon as it's offered.

 

[Boatsb]

Where and when is the class?

Is it still open?

 

[Trojan]

Do the Cats and Commings have liners?
I myself would not choose to re power. There is no way that I could even come close to getting any of my money back. It's just not PRACTICAL for me. It would be almost the same for a rebuild. I'm glad I have new rebuilds. I have maybe 20 years at best to live. I'm not rich and I'm not in any hurry to go anywhere. If I was in my 20s to 30s I might consider it. I realize there are people on this forum that have more money than time to use there boat and need the extra speed of new motors in order to utilize there time. But you must consider that the 1970-80 boats all had just about the same motors. Rebuild parts will be around easily for 20-30 years. Its not very easy to look at the the number of DD engines built if you live in the states. But these DD are world wide and are rebuilt every day by everyone and anyone world wide. There will be parts.
I have seen thousands of engine swaps in race cars and hot rods. Everyone is a SOB when it comes to finding a spare part. Where can I get one, who made the part, what do I call it, is it one of a kind, did the shop make it, What shop, what company will service it, who belongs to that part. I want no part of that when I'm an a boat trip. Mixing and matching parts to get me going again is not for me. I can't even think of what I would do if I was on a long trip and broke a part on one of the re powered misfits. If everyone was top notch mechanic they would not be on this forum asking questions. How many people on this forum say thanks to Hatteras for there book keeping. Lets see the book keeping on the re power. Just My thoughts about a re power.


BILL

 

[Rickysa]

Where and when is the class?

Is it still open?

DD in Lauderdale, and it's the week after Thanksgiving...give them a call, they probably have space.

I'm not sure about the tear-down class

http://www.fdda.com/en/ContactUsDetail.aspx?BranchID=6

 

[Boatsb]

Thanks. I'm calling now.

 

[jim rosenthal]

Trojan,

A well-done repower is not the same as hotrodding a car, although I understand what you are talking about. There is obviously no such thing as a Hatteras engine, just what was OEM and available when they built the boat. It seems like there has always been only one or two dominant players in the market place as far as engine suppliers, until recently. When I began boating, DD had the lion's share of the marine market, with some going to Cummins (their old stuff) and a little to Cat. That was about it.

A well-done repower is expensive, and rightly so: the engine room has to be reengineered to a large extent. A good shop will do this such that the boat is essentially new from the walls of the engine room inward- not only the engines and gears, but the mounts, cabling, pipework, wiring- the works. Basically this is a heart transplant on a boat- maybe a bad analogy since when we transplant hearts, we use all the old plumbing as much as we can.

The smaller boats get repowered for somewhat different reasons than the bigger ones. A lot of boats like mine started out as gas-powered. Now that modern diesels are available that use less and cheaper fuel, and perform better, these boats get repowered for performance reasons. Bigger boats just tend to get the engines rebuilt that came in them, because the engines have worn out, and they are engineered to be rebuilt.

It isn't true that parent-bore engines like the Cummins and Cats can't be rebuilt, any more than you can't rebuild a Ford or Chevy motor. The procedure is different, but it's done every day.

If I owned a bigger Hatteras, especially a MY where the logistics of doing a repower are much much worse than in a 36C, I would rebuilt what I had, when it needed it, and in between times maintain it the best I could, to make those intervals as long as possible. I would be much less inclined to repower a boat such as that, because I could achieve what I wanted- performance and reliability- just by making the old engines new again.

 

[Maynard Rupp]

Hey Jim...Be careful about that "cheaper fuel" thought. I went to a local marina to winter store our yacht club's lobster boat. I filled it with diesel @ $2.78. The gas pump next to it said $2.09. My how this crap changes. Jim, our complete trip from Detroit to Miami used 3100 gallons of gas and this figured to 13.2 gph. 321 hours and $8400.00.

 

[MikeP]

Maynard,

Just curious - Do you happen to know your total sailing distance from Detroit to Miami? I'm trying to get an idea for time required re moving our boat to Mexico...

 

[Freebird]

I'll leave that comment alone (about MikeP's statement of agreeing with Randy on something again, Page 4, #40) in the interest of staying on topic! Then I'll list quotes from everybody else to make this thread go on forever.

Just goes to show that when certain members make a serious contribution to a serious thread, some folks just have to stir the pot.

Okay mods, zap if you must. I'm headed to the Sandbar.

PS Ever thought of changing the name of your boat to Pisty?

 

[Freebird]

Quote from MikeP...Well, I can't believe this has happened twice in a few days but...I agree with Randy. To use Randy's analogy, if I'm buying a 1974 Norton Commando, I don't want a Honda engine in it. The reality is, most buyers of this sort of boat that want a repower, would rather buy the boat in it's oem form and do the repower themselves. That way, they know what they've got. If you buy an old Hatt with a non-DD engine, you have to make a SERIOUS assumption that everything that had to be changed from what Hatt designed/installed has been changed to at least the same level.

Heeere's Eddie.......This analogy doesn't hold, for me anyway....a connisoure of old Nortons wouldn't buy it to repower it, rather they want it to be, and stay, original. A connisoure of Hatts, I think, is much more interested in her lines, design and integrity. Power on a motor yacht is not a "numbers must match" collectors feature, it's a means of propulsion.

Detroits may be just a means of propulsion, but these boats were designed to be fitted with big heavy motors. This may not be an issue on little Hatts, like yours, which were fitted with little DD's. However, it most certainly would have to be an issue on larger ones, like mine, as to balance and overall performance in all kinds of weather.

I agree with the crowd that thinks Jack Hargrave knew what the hell he was doing when he designed these boats. Granted, smaller and lighter high output engines weren't around in the 70's, but I figure if they had been, he would have looked at the big picture and kept the big engines.

With that said, if any of you part-time engineer/mechanic types want to mess around with stuff of legends, be my guest. For me, I think I'll not try to improve on what was arguably the best designed, best engineered, and best built boat on the market. In short, if you want a light boat with light engines that need to be rebuilt/replaced in a thousand hours and goes like hell in smooth water, go buy a Sea Ray. Been there, done that. Enough said.

Oh yeah, for the sake of accuracy it's spelled "connoisseur".

 

[AquaNav77]

I find with rather great interest, especially amongst those that were somewhat negative on the CAT engine. Someone said show me in writing where it says 10,000 hours. Ok fine. Just simply go to the CAT booth at the next show near you and look at the data plate. It says 10,000 hrs MTBF!!! Is that not good enough?????? This was inprinted on a C-15 Acert Engine producing 865 MHP @ 2300 RPM. This was very blatantly obvious. This is the engine that I have selected to power a 58' TC that I am currently searching for.

On our last family boat we accumulated 5000 hours on our 3412 CAT engines and are still running just as well as new. I can NEVER say that for any of the 12V71TI engines that we have owned in three different boats. Once one runs a CAT powered boat, you will never want to go back to the DD 2 strokes. I had always heard that when I was running my DD's from other owners, so when it came time to order again, it was CATS for sure. I havent regretted that decision at all.

AquaNav77