repowers & Hatt future values

[Red Hatt]

So can anyone tell me why these good looking older Hatteras Yachts value have been steadly declining in pricing and sold price in the past year. When will the value's stop there down ward spiral???

 

[Mike36c]

Why I like putting @ 21kts:

It's July at noon on the way to the Bahamas for a weekend getaway. The rocking wakes left by the hotrod sportfishers ahead has long subsided and we're comfortably alone cruising the Bahamian bank. The autopilot rock solid, engines purring, the old girl seems happy to be doing what she does best, taking her loving owners on another adventure. The Admiral surprises me with an ice cold Kalik Gold, a smile, then removes some bathing suit. Life is good....

We arrive at our destination to see our hotrod friends waiting on the docks with their boats already washed/dried, chairs on the dock, showered with cocktails in hand. They all notice at our late arrival, I wink at the Admiral.

I repowered my 36 with 6BTA Cummins in 2004 and don't regret it one bit. Lets face it, there is no way to justify owning a boat, we own boats because we can. That being said I'm helping my friend repower/refit is 45c of 22 years with new Cummins M11's. He shopped larger/newer Hatts, Vikings, etc. for a year with money not being an issue. he ended up deciding to keep his old Hatt. The bottom line is that if you like and plan on keeping the boat (important!) fix her up and enjoy, it's just money. my $.02

 

[Tawney1]

I have read this thread with keen interest and almost amazement. Therefore, I hope this is not too off topic from the original post. The insightful comments and observations from you guys have me completely perplexed as to whether to rebuild or replace the 12V71TIs on our 1985, 61' Hatt MY (650 hp). The DDs have 4200 and 4500 hours respectivley, and while they seem to run great as long as I keep oil and coolant in them, they smoke profusely, even after warming up and under way, and Bobby Zacks of Zacks Diesel in Miami tells me the upper rings are failing, etc. I am told I should be able to get another 100-200 hours out of them if I want to endure the smoke. I have an estimate from Covington Diesel in New Bern (Beaufort) to rebuild for about $25,000 each with a contingent of $10,000. At the FLIB, I was told by the CAT guys that new CATS for the boat would be somewhere around $53,000 each. Of course that does not include installation, which will include substantial alterations to get the DDs out and the CATs in. The benefit of replacing DDs is obviously increase in horsepower, thus speed when desired, significant decrease in weight and fuel consumption under general conditions, and substantial increase in value.

I am told that a rebuild of the DDs does not result in any significant reduction in fuel consumption (is that correct?), and from what I understand from the above discussion, does not result in any appreciable increase in value (is that correct?).

Anyway, considering all that has been observed above, the question to rebuild or replace seems to be a tough one. What say you guys? What would you do or what will you do if faced with the real decision?

Thanks,
Paul

 

[spartonboat1]

So can anyone tell me why these good looking older Hatteras Yachts value have been steadly declining in pricing and sold price in the past year. When will the value's stop there down ward spiral???

Can you give a frame of reference? Maybe in terms of the 70's, 80', (90's?). Those 43' MY's of the early mid 70's seem to bee hanging around $80-120K, which is where they have been for 3-4 years. The 70's 53's have been around 200-250K, maybe slighty under 200 if issues.

The 58' MY triple cabins seem to pressured the most...more than the 53's.

Can you update your thoughts?

 

[60hatt]

buy a 1987 to 19991 45c for 200k to 225k. then add new qsm11 110k then add install for 50k then replace everything eles with new i mean everything and your up to 500k.
would you want the older hatters at 500k or a new lurhs 45 with the same engines for 1 mil.

well i would have to take the hatteras.
what do you guys think?

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Can you give a frame of reference? Maybe in terms of the 70's, 80', (90's?). Those 43' MY's of the early mid 70's seem to bee hanging around $80-120K, which is where they have been for 3-4 years. The 70's 53's have been around 200-250K, maybe slighty under 200 if issues.

The 58' MY triple cabins seem to pressured the most...more than the 53's.

Can you update your thoughts?

In 1983, my dad sold his 1975 43DC for 140 and almost bought a 1970 53MY for 230. At that time, he ended up buying a non Hatt(new) instead, but those prices are not much different now than they were 25 years ago. Not bad.

 

[60hatt]

red hatt :I think it is the older D D power in them that new owners do not want.

 

[Freebird]

Hey, I for one am at a point where I have been toying around with the idea of repowering my 58TC. There is no doubt that more modern engine packages would yield higher speeds, lower weights, and burn less fuel. I've considered the pro's and con's, and decided to rebuild my ailing 12V71N. These engines are tried and true, and they yielded a respectable 18mph cruise and 22mph WOT before the starboard took early retirement.

I may be wrong, there's a first time for everything, but it would seem to me the values of vintage Hatts would be better if they still have the original engine packages. It may not be a good analogy, but look at classic cars. There is no doubt that modern "crate" engines offer impressive gains in every department over the original powerplants. But the all original examples bring the biggest buck when the gavel hits the podium.

I figure my boat was designed to haul these heavy muthers around, and changing the 12's for 6's of the same horsepower may have an adverse effect on overall performance. Hatteras boats in general are living proof that lighter is not always better. I guarantee you no one is going to predict a life span on turbo 6's anywhere near the natural 12's I have now once they're properly rebuilt. Others may beat me in a drag race, but I'm in it for the long haul. Durability is king and will win the race in the end when the fast guys have all blown up.

 

[MikeP]

Well, I can't believe this has happened twice in a few days but...I agree with Randy.

I believe most buyers looking at these boats will want the oem engines in them, not repowers. Several years ago, when we were shopping I was told about a 53 that had some sort of repower - can't recall what engines. The broker told us their were no offers on the boat at all. He pretty much summed it up by saying - "If someone is looking for an old Hatteras, they want to see Detroits in there."

To use Randy's analogy, if I'm buying a 1974 Norton Commando, I don't want a Honda engine in it. The reality is, most buyers of this sort of boat that want a repower, would rather buy the boat in it's oem form and do the repower themselves. That way, they know what they've got. If you buy an old Hatt with a non-DD engine, you have to make a SERIOUS assumption that everything that had to be changed from what Hatt designed/installed has been changed to at least the same level.

I'm not saying that it can't be done and done very well; but I don't believe that a repower with different engines will improve the resale value of any of these boats. This is something to be done, as others have pointed out, because you want to do it for your own reasons - but resale isn't one of them.

I just recently sold my Porsche 911; when I was talking to some local "experts," they told me to take all the "speed parts" off the car before listing it because the value of the car is lower to a new buyer with them on there. ALSO - and this was quite interesting to me - the car had it's engine REPLACED UNDER WARRANTY BY PORSCHE at 25,000 miles. The car had 56,000 when I sold it so the engine had about 1/2 the mileage of the car. I thought that was a GREAT thing for resale. It wasn't - the car no longer had matching numbers! The new engine REDUCED the value of the car!

 

[Freebird]

Be careful there Mike, you may be setting yourself up for banishment to the sandbar if you keep admitting I've said something of value!

Seriously, you made some valid points that apply to anything classic in nature. I realize this is going to sound like a sales pitch (I guess it is really), but I would think the one exception to this rule would be as in the case with my 41DC or any other gas Hatt.

I suppose it could be argued that the 7.4 MerCruisers which were installed in '93 were of the same manufacturer, shared the same basic weight and dimensions, and did not require any reworking of related systems. The boat didn't have to be cut as the engines are raised up, then out through the side windows in the salon.

With this repower, everything was a positive IMHO. I suppose it could go either way to a "purist" looking for an unmolested original. But my 41 is so far from original, I don't think it would be an issue. For all intents and purposes, it's a '93 one of a kind custom. Truth is, I'm sorta glad nobody has purchased it from me. I'm leaning more every day towards keeping it. I'm sure my trip down "The Gorge" will only serve to remind me what a great old boat she really is.

Truth is, my 58TC is really too big for river operation. I like to cruise on plane, and I'm afraid I may get myself in trouble throwing 6 footers even in the widest parts of the river with no other boats in close proximity. Unlike many up here, I am fully aware that I am responsible for my own wake.

Look for a price increase on the 41 come Monday!

 

[NAN-PO 41]

I may be in the minority here but I love my old Detroits. We aren't the first ones to get to the dance but we aren't exhausted when we arrive. It would seem to me that it would have to make a difference in the ride when you remove 1/2 the weight of the engines and increase the speed. Speed is understandably important to a Sportfisherman but we prefer a more liesurely pace in our Twin Cabin. Spending quality time with friends and family is a lot more fun on the boat underway than on the dock after arrival and we don't own old Hatts for the resale value. We put a lot more of ourselves into these boats than we will ever get back in $. Our payback is in the enjoyment we get.
Just my $.02 Fred

 

[Paul45c]

Oh, I don't think you're the minority opinion -- LOTS of Detroit fans here!

The classic " leave-'em-alone" arguments are interesting, and no doubt are on the mark for a lot of buyers. The kinds of owners who right now are contemplating a repower themselves would probably welcome a boat that's already had it done, knowing especially how much work and expense is involved to do it right.

Myself, I'd probably prefer old DD power, but harkening back to the points I've raised earlier in this thread, you'd have to think about future possible buyers of the boat.

What's the safest bet? Set yourself up with the Hatt of your dreams right now, read and commit to memory the Detroit service/tech manual for your engines, and never sell the boat!

 

[dwaynec]

I agree with Paul on the Detroits. Last year the Admiral and I took a look at a 58 Tri Cabin with 450 Cummins. Aside from the fact that it is underpowered, the darn thing sounded like a Carver . Ran away pretty quickly.

 

[spartonboat1]

My son is a grown man with wife, two children and an MBA. About 3-4 years ago He was getting the hots for a brand new hot-rod Tiara with Cummins. We went for a ride...fast, fast, (but smoky at idle). But you hit a 3-5 sea at 30knots in a 32-35 craft, and the throttles will come back down quickly. Then he learned the price! Ouch.

Since then, he seems to have developed a new found interest in my old 43' Hatt and is not afraid to/now enjoys running her anymore. When we mention selling it, which is an annual exercise, he suggests maybe we could keep it for awhile. We always decide to keep for another year, since there is some trip we have not taken yet and something on her is prettier or works better than last year.

Finally, even though we don't have her as pretty as we would prefer, we seem to always get nice comments about her appearance. We can hear people in their boats driving by in the river..."boy, I'll bet she's big inside...or...look at that boat- nice". Other members of the marina mention they would like to own one like her, but "can't afford one". I don't have the heart to tell them that they paid more for their 30+ footer, than my vintage 43'.

Three things for sure- taxes, getting older, death. So when the getting older thing happens, then I hope today's younger crowd will be more interested in the enjoyment of a lower cruise speed. A used Hatt salesman says its about a 3-5 year cycle. Nope, too slow, pokey. Buys go-fast, takes the warm depreciation bath, and bounces wave to waver. Re-discovers the advantages of a vintage Hatt, to say nothing of lower outlay.

Long post, but a streaming thought...

 

[garyd]

There are folks that will rebuild their boats because they love them, and want to keep them for a very long time. There are others that refit because it makes sense for them at the time they do so.

There are still others that start down the path and don't complete it but spend a boat load of money. If you can find one of these projects that need thought, time and some money you can end up with the best of both worlds.

Since some refits are done and then sold for considerably less than they should why not buy one and get an older proven Hat with new technology engines.

Yes they have extra bells and whistles, and you have to get use to them but they are pretty reliable. We don't still use sliderulers we use newer technology. Newer technology is not necessarily bad just different.

The item that may kill the Hats is completely new technology when someday you see a 50 SF doing 30kts in 3' seas getting 1 NM or more per gallon.

Have Fun Boating! garyd

 

[thoward]

I for one like having those big ole engines, they got me out of a big azz ticket . We got stopped by a couple of local yokal Florida Marine patrols in Crystal River. The first thing they asked was "What navy do you belong to?". We laughed and they went about looking over the boat. They asked for the usual safety stuff and then wanted to look at bilge so I opened the rear door to the engine room. He never made it to the last step before turning around and hightailing it off the boat stating "everything looks good". Which was great for me because I had not yet found the controls for the holding tank. Come to find out they were in the wrong position.

 

[J's Dream]

I hope today's younger crowd will be more interested in the enjoyment of a lower cruise speed. Long post, but a streaming thought...

BINGO!!!

I am probably the youngest Hatteras owner on this forum (and anywhere for that matter), and I own one because of the safety, comfort, and DD's. I had the center consoles, the cuddy cabins, and I am not interested in the speed. When that afternoon squall pops up, I want to know I can feel safe on/in my boat...and with a center console, I never felt safe. I never could totally outrun the storm either, so with the Hatt, I am confident I can get home.

In fact, I went to FLIBS, and looked at quite a few of the new sportfish's. I wouldn't trade my 45C for ANY boat I saw there. Even the new Hatts don't have the ER access I do. I looked at a 70' Jarrett Bay with MAN's. It burns 188 GPH at cruise (30+ knots). OK, so I cruise at 20-22 knots burning 30-35 GPH...good enough for me...think I'll stick with my old DD's!

 

[jim rosenthal]

With regard to Tawney's question above...if I had that boat, I would just major the engines that are already in it. I would NOT pull them out and spend twice as much money, or more, to put in something else that won't go a whole lot faster, make the boat worth more, etc etc. Newer engines might burn less fuel, sure, but you will have to circumnavigate ten or twelve times to save enough money to pay for them.

Fix what you have. Make sure you follow Karl's rules on getting the rebuilds done, and budget for the while-you're-in-theres that will inevitably come up. Essentially, with a 1985 61' Hatteras MY, you want to make it perform reliably and cleanly like it did when new, not turn it into a hot rod. You will not get this money back on a resale, but you knew that anyway. If you love the boat, spend the money to make it run as it did when new. The reason that there are a million Detroits out there is that they sold millions of them. The reason that they sold millions of them is that they ran reliably when maintained (and sometimes when NOT maintained) and did the job they were supposed to.

The only other alternative I would entertain with any seriousness is to switch your engines out for a set of completely rebuilt, dyno-tuned and performance-checked identical engines. That would cost you a bit more, but save some time. Against that you have to weigh the additional headaches in getting an intact engine in there, versus doing an in-frame which is probably what your guys are discussing.

Good luck with this, and Happy Motoring.

 

[Boss Lady]

beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Nothing has intrinsic value. It is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Used boat values are determined by the cost of replacement, condition and demand. You should not look at a boat as any kind of investment. Since they are in a constant state of deterioration, it is a losing proposition. The best you can hope for is that if you keep you boat in good condition, that the increasing cost of new boats will help keep your old boats value up so that if you sell it, it will bring what you paid for it, minus the maintenance costs during ownership. If you purchase a vintage Hat of a popular model that has pretty much reached its' depreciation level, then you can buy it, maintain it, enjoy it and hopefully sell without a great amount of further depreciation. The market can be a fickle place. Especially since the type of boats we like are not what the rich buy, and the average guy cannot afford it, so you have to find a rather well to do person who likes your boat and can afford it. If you cannot wait to sell it you will most likely have to reduce the price to get someone off the fence to buy. Well maintained boats always sell quickly. The more issues a boat has the fewer number of potential buyers there are at any price. Everyone has different skills and interests. If a boat is mechanically sound, but needs a lot cosmetics, like paint or new woodwork it will be attractive to one type of buyer, if it looks like a cream puff but, needs major engine workl, it would appeal to a totally different type of buyer. Some boats are not a bargain even if someone gave it to you. All boats reach a point where they need a major refurbishment. Very few people have the time, interest or money to take on a project like this. The same way a new Hatteras (semi-custom) buyer is different from someone who is willing to wait 2 years for a true custom boat, and all the time it takes to be involved with the details during construction. Most new Hat buyers just want to pick out the wood and trim combination and then pickup the completed boat. The custom buyer usually wants to be involved with every detail. I personally would prefer to find a cream puff that needs engines, so I could make sure that the rebuilds were done correctly. The boat I am doing now is really a custom using a Hat hull. It will probably not appeal to someone looking for the original boat even though everything is brand new. But I stress again these are not investments but big toys.

 

[egaito]

Well, I can't believe this has happened twice in a few days but...I agree with Randy.

I'll leave that comment alone in the interest of staying on topic!

I believe most buyers looking at these boats will want the oem engines in them, not repowers. Several years ago, when we were shopping I was told about a 53 that had some sort of repower - can't recall what engines. The broker told us their were no offers on the boat at all. He pretty much summed it up by saying - "If someone is looking for an old Hatteras, they want to see Detroits in there."

I'm not sure I subscribe to this....my boat was re-powered when I purchased her, and I saw it as a benefit, after I checked out the effort. Done right, it's not rocket science to see it as a benefit. Making sure it has been done right might be more of a concern. In my case, a friend turned me onto someone that knew this hull, and confirmed it was capable of the upgrade. The surveyor confirmed that the installation had been done right.

To use Randy's analogy, if I'm buying a 1974 Norton Commando, I don't want a Honda engine in it. The reality is, most buyers of this sort of boat that want a repower, would rather buy the boat in it's oem form and do the repower themselves. That way, they know what they've got. If you buy an old Hatt with a non-DD engine, you have to make a SERIOUS assumption that everything that had to be changed from what Hatt designed/installed has been changed to at least the same level.

This analogy doesn't hold, for me anyway....a connisoure of old Nortons wouldn't buy it to repower it, rather they want it to be, and stay, original. A connisoure of Hatts, I think, is much more interested in her lines, design and integrity. Power on a motor yacht is not a "numbers must match" collectors feature, it's a means of propulsion.

I'm not saying that it can't be done and done very well; but I don't believe that a repower with different engines will improve the resale value of any of these boats. This is something to be done, as others have pointed out, because you want to do it for your own reasons - but resale isn't one of them.

This I'll sort of agree with. The PO of Misty didn't get his money back, though he did a great job repowering her, but his intention was not to get his money back, it was to use the boat, and he set her up wonderfully to do so. But plans change.....

I just recently sold my Porsche 911; when I was talking to some local "experts," they told me to take all the "speed parts" off the car before listing it because the value of the car is lower to a new buyer with them on there. ALSO - and this was quite interesting to me - the car had it's engine REPLACED UNDER WARRANTY BY PORSCHE at 25,000 miles. The car had 56,000 when I sold it so the engine had about 1/2 the mileage of the car. I thought that was a GREAT thing for resale. It wasn't - the car no longer had matching numbers! The new engine REDUCED the value of the car!

Not surprising....a classic car, a potential collectors item, is definately about "numbers matching" originality. I'm not sure that translates into boats, where classic lines and design make more of a difference than original equipment engines, pumps, HVAC, and other systems......

Now if you look at a classic wooden Chris, people might want to see that old engine in there, but on motoryachts? I'm not so sure it's as important.