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Question for you Detroit Guys

  • Thread starter Thread starter 67hat34c
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I think your right the aluminum Detroits I mentioned where all naturalls (And I'm not talking about some odball military engine) they were plain old engines that anyone could buy. I looked into it a little more and they also produced aluminum 53s but all low HP naturals and none above 6 cyl (that I could find)

Brian
 
All of the 356, 912, 914, and 911 series Porsche engines are aluminum, always have been, always will be. They hold up very well, even at the 500+ horsepower levels of the latest twin turbo versions.
You won't find any purpose designed racing engine built out of anything BUT aluminum. Formula 1 and NASCAR engines for widely differing example.

Where do you get this antique "no aluminum" information?

Get with the modern technology. Slide rules (and buggy whips) are obsolete.
 
Okay, we have "slud" off the edge. (what baseball player used that term?)

Uh, oh...slide rule warning! We went to the moon on slide rules in vehicles designed by "injineers" using lead and mylar (paper) and triangular rulers. In my old engineering days, the use of (getting caught) with an "electronic calculator" in class was an automatic "F".

We don't really have a fully functioning anti-ICBM missile desiged with electronics targeting and navigation systems. But I remember that the old Nike-X was fully capable and I thought ran fluidics control systems. But I'll bet politically in engineering circles, "digital" is the only acceptable approach. Some older proven approaches may not come up to the radar.

I have known the Dean of Engineering of Tulane U. for several years. He was concerned because the old profs could not keep up with the younger ones in the use of computers. I warned him that he was only observing the ease of learning the Graphical User Interfaces (GUI's), aka Windows. The underlying engineering principles have not changed in 5 billion years, so a call by a GUI to a bad engineering principal or design algorithm produces, guess what, bad designs!! Please ask me about total disaster dll's underlying modern computer systems. Somearegreat, somearenot...a lot are not so great. But then after 2-3 years the vendor will get it right. P.s., most IT people agree don't deploy version "dot-oh". That would include aluminum parts. Ask Ford about the "vunderful" sintered aluminum idler/steering arms that cracked just being driven out into the street. This on a car designed for 200mph. Thrill a minute if let go at top speed. P.s.2, dropped forged steel replaced arm I think.

The continuous duty rating of the GM 6-71 was mentioned as 175hp (thought it was 185, whatever), but I do wonder if any of the aluminum engines mentioned could function out in an oilfield running 24x7 for months with next to no maintenance performed by good-ole-boys carry a 5 pound sledege, vise grips, and cresent wrench for tools.

OBTW that is what in-the-field procedures should allow (low-tech but effective maintenance) and call for. Modern management practices clearly include TCO (total cost of ownership) and TLC (total life cycle) support, esp. in-the-field technical maintenance and support. Sometimes high tech, high cost approaches are indicated, but where cost is a factor, ease and low cost rule the day, given a certain "grade of quality".

I wonder if we we see a change to aluminum bridges, after the collapse in Minnesota. I hope not. I prefer steel and concrete. OBTW2, I thought Al was subject to much lower levels of fatigue factors, than some other metals. So much depends on the application.

Mercedes Benz has had a lovely line of aluminum block engines for 12-15 years, but while they run at WOT in Europe, I have not seen any of them pop up "marinized" in the US in boats that is.

Regarding un-proven diesel engine designs, I thought MAN produced those for awhile. I've read (been told) that after full re-builds, they would blow out the tops of pistions on the maiden sea trial. Not encouraging and very good diesel techs called them MAN grenades. Oh, wel..

My 40 something sons once asked me why I like all old stuff. I replied I don't like all old stuff, just the really good designs that have proven their durability and longevity.

As Desi would say, "Done wurry Luzi", when the feds jack up the cafe stds so your Ford F350 has to get 35mpg (I'm not joking here), you'll have alumunum blocks spinning 10k rpm, with carbon fiber frames and bodies (we just have cheap drop forged aluminum currently LOL), with a dash of kevlar (its already in tires). Of course they'll cost $100k to produce. The feds love to have you spend your money in your own best interest.

Woof, another long post...hope I don't get into trouble with the posting review gods...
 
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I never knew titanium was such a poor conductor of heat...and that could be a good thing. Isuzu patented a ceramic engine in the early 90's. NOT transferring heat is a good thing because then it can remain in the cylinder longer to allow for more expansion and thus more efficiency. Think about it, the less heat conducted through the block, the less goes out the cooling system (getting into some thermodynamics with isentropic efficiency). Of course the moving internals would have to be able to stand the temperatures, but material science has come a long way in the past 20 years.

I'm done talking about aluminum because it's quite obvious that those who know, know, and those who don't refuse to learn :) Just cause somebody is old doesn't mean they are always correct and just because somebody is young doesn't mean they are always wrong lol

And quite obviously in any design case, the #1 ruling factor is going to be $$$. If it's cheaper to use cast iron and meet all the other design goals, then it will be used because it is cheaper...anybody with any sense knows that.
 
There is little thing called corrosion resistance that eludes aluminum. I have owned my share of outboards and by the time it was worn out, there was not much left to rebuild due to corrosion of the castings. Just like everything there are trade offs, and aluminum and outboards have been a pretty good fit. However, I don't think anyone would find it acceptable to have to buy new engines every ten years for your Hatteras, the way we do for our outboard powered boats. Like I said in an earlier post, you can have a sexy lightweight marine diesel, just get out your checkbook, it has already been done. I just happen to feel that the trade offs are not worth any percieved benefits. I can show you 30 and 40 year old farm tractors that run circles around the new ones when it comes to reliability. The new stuff is better when it is running, but if it is a nightmare to keep running which is better?

I admit that the new engines are better in theory, and when they work the bugs out I will be the first in line to buy, til then I like proven technology in my boat. If my BMW breaks down, I can call a tow truck, which is a minor inconvenience, the same breakdown in a boat can be catastrophic to the boat and/or the crew.
 
There is nothing wrong with an Aluminum diesel engine. My 2500HD duramax had aluminum heads. Everyone knows a tricked out duramax makes well over 1000fp and around 500 ish or more horse power. Only 400 cubes.

Problem with marine is that no one is willing to make a cheap engine for the masses that is one cheap and two for the masses. They all want to keep "speed" a high priced item when it's not really. About 3 more days in thought is required and a little more machine work is required.

In all reality it takes more engineering to make an engine not exceed a set horsepower rating. Everything today is over built (they still charge you for) then they slap a computer on the side of it that limits it's hp and tfp to a set limit.

Ah doesn't matter lol everyone knows diesel electric is the way to go. Huge diesel mains are a thing of the past anyway. There is some diesel / electric tranny hybrids out there, but i think D/E will be the way to go, much more you can do. Much easier to produce electoral power with smaller engines rather than 2 big ones. Plus if you have say a 4 - 5 engine setup your not done for... lol Top it off with one killer solar setup and your set.

I'm a little more interested in the efficient part of travel now, I'm thinking Hybrid Diesel / Electric with solar support.

http://www.powerandmotoryacht.com/boat-design/island-pilot-dse-hybrid-12m/index.aspx

Who wouldn't like that boat?!?!?! LOL It doesn't even have rudders!
 
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D/E is, of course, well proven in locomotive use. Admittedly a boat is a different application but it seems it would work equally well. But one has to wonder - at least I do - why, since D/E locomotives have been in common use since at least the late 1940's, D/E has yet to be in regular use in pleasure boats (as far as I know).

At WOT you would need more generated HP to move the same weight boat than you would with a conventionally powered boat but with the potential efficiency increase when considering the entire operating envelope, it does look like a good thing. Unfortunately, regardless of how good it is/becomes in this application, I'll never be able to afford the retrofit!
 
D/E is, of course, well proven in locomotive use. Admittedly a boat is a different application but it seems it would work equally well. But one has to wonder - at least I do - why, since D/E locomotives have been in common use since at least the late 1940's, D/E has yet to be in regular use in pleasure boats (as far as I know).

At WOT you would need more generated HP to move the same weight boat than you would with a conventionally powered boat but with the potential efficiency increase when considering the entire operating envelope, it does look like a good thing. Unfortunately, regardless of how good it is/becomes in this application, I'll never be able to afford the retrofit!

These reason no one really has it now is because of the cost to retrofit a current boat to D/E. The systems are there for the cost of two engines. The government offers some grants for retrofits if you have older 2 stroke engines and do a lot of boating. Not to hard to get. It would be very cost effective if you only needed 10 - 13kts WOT speed. In a 40 foot sized boat i'd think 13-14kts WOT and a very easy 9kts would be on order. However everyone is speed crazed now and want more. As the cost of fuel doubles over the next 5 years i believe that will die off and more people will be looking at D/E and other types of solar/diesel setup.

Whatever happened to hitting up 8-9kts and cruising? When did everyone become in such a rush they have to rush the boating trip? I totally understand for day fishing but your 40-50ish foot cruisers? Where ya going? lol In the ICW 8-10kts is on order anyway. Yea might be a little trawler talk here but really who *needs* 24kts. Have any idea how long engines would last if you only ever did hull speed most of the time?

Personally i've been trying to figure out more distance rather than speed. That's why i was even thinking of replacing my 8v71s with something smaller just enough power for 13kts, but really efficient at 9kts? Don't know but i would think 500 gallons of diesel should get me quite far. I would think a solar over diesel hybrid would work. Mostly i cruise ICW anyway not like i'm gonna be fighting waves most of the time.

Think about this guys... market keeps up offroad diesel will be 5 - 6 bux in the next 5 ish years. $3,000 per 500 gallon fill up! OUCH! The time to start thinking about it is now... Supporting some of the guys who are giving us different options as to big engines.

Instead of hearing about how someone made a hatteras really fast where is the guys who are working to make a hatteras very efficient? Otherwise these hatteras are gonna just sit like most do anyway.

Will boss lady II be a long range efficient cruiser? LOL If anyone here could build a boat to be efficient these guys could. I'd love to see what ideas they'd come up with.
 
I think you'll find that nearly all the MY-ers on the site typically cruise at 9-10 knots. Other than periodic "clean-out" runs for a few minutes at a time, that speed seems to be common.

Typically I set the RPM at 1400; on our 53MY that will produce a through-the-water speed of around 9.5k with no wind. The only thing I don't like about cruising at this RPM is that the eng temps remain too low - around 165. I'd like to see them at 185 all time and have been thinking of swapping the 160 tstats for something warmer. 180s would put the upper end at around 195. I realize that a lot of knowledgeable folks view 195 as much too hot for these engines but DD claims it's fine and the engines would be more efficient.

However, I readily admit that the range between 195 and "WAAY TOO HOT" is rather narrow, with little room to notice a problem before it occurs...
 
I think you'll find that nearly all the MY-ers on the site typically cruise at 9-10 knots. Other than periodic "clean-out" runs for a few minutes at a time, that speed seems to be common.

Typically I set the RPM at 1400; on our 53MY that will produce a through-the-water speed of around 9.5k with no wind. The only thing I don't like about cruising at this RPM is that the eng temps remain too low - around 165. I'd like to see them at 185 all time and have been thinking of swapping the 160 tstats for something warmer. 180s would put the upper end at around 195. I realize that a lot of knowledgeable folks view 195 as much too hot for these engines but DD claims it's fine and the engines would be more efficient.

However, I readily admit that the range between 195 and "WAAY TOO HOT" is rather narrow, with little room to notice a problem before it occurs...

195 is perfectly fine with these engines. However, if you use a 180 tstat you should have an engine temp near 180ish, Not 195. But this goes along with what can your cooling system handle. In theory the tstat is what sets your normal engine temp. 180 degree sets the tstat to open and give the engine cooler water at 180 engine water temp. If your system has a large capacity it should be able to keep your engine in the 180ish temp range and only climb over that at WOT.

One thing i can't figure out is why DD thought it would be funny to include with all the engines a undersized heat exchanger. They all need to be about 1/3 larger for the water they flow then in theory they should even be able to hold WOT without changing temp. No one ever plans for it to **REALLY** last 32 years and going.

ARG! lol
 
Per my DD service manual, specs for the tstats specify that the range for the 180 Tstat is: opens at 180 and fully open by 195. This is the "acceptable range" there will be some variation from stat to stat.

Per DD the same 15 degree variation exists for all of them: a 160 opens at 160 and is fully open at 175. A 170 opens at 170 and is fully open at 185.

At my normal cruise both engines hold 164; at WOT for 20-30 minutes they hold 182-184. (again this is with 160tstats and a CLEAN cooling system)
 
Neo, did you miss out on the diesel electric discussions? http://www.samsmarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7216&highlight=diesel+electric


The only problem I can see about putting a hotter 'stat in is that when you do want to run hard for a short period of time you do'nt have the thermal capacidence that you did with the cooler 'stat because your water temperature is already at 185 vs 170. That 15 degrees can really help you out if you are in a bind (for a short period of time) and have sub-par cooling. Once steady state is reach and the 'stat is full open, nothing really matters.
 
D/E is, of course, well proven in locomotive use. Admittedly a boat is a different application but it seems it would work equally well. But one has to wonder - at least I do - why, since D/E locomotives have been in common use since at least the late 1940's, D/E has yet to be in regular use in pleasure boats (as far as I know).

At WOT you would need more generated HP to move the same weight boat than you would with a conventionally powered boat but with the potential efficiency increase when considering the entire operating envelope, it does look like a good thing. Unfortunately, regardless of how good it is/becomes in this application, I'll never be able to afford the retrofit!


Cost vrs gain The weak link in the locomotive is getting traction with a steel wheel riding on a steel rail to overcome that you drive as many wheels as you can. Traction motors on each wheel might be less expensive than trying to build a transmission that could drive all those wheels especialy when they are on cariages that have to pivot.

Brian
 
The Miller ferry line run all diesel electrics. About 25 knots. I think there is 6 of them.

BILL
 
Per my DD service manual, specs for the tstats specify that the range for the 180 Tstat is: opens at 180 and fully open by 195. This is the "acceptable range" there will be some variation from stat to stat.

Per DD the same 15 degree variation exists for all of them: a 160 opens at 160 and is fully open at 175. A 170 opens at 170 and is fully open at 185.

At my normal cruise both engines hold 164; at WOT for 20-30 minutes they hold 182-184. (again this is with 160tstats and a CLEAN cooling system)


Yes, fully open at WOT load. Under normal load should be in the 180s... Mine like to ride in the 188-190 range.
 
Neo, did you miss out on the diesel electric discussions? http://www.samsmarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7216&highlight=diesel+electric


The only problem I can see about putting a hotter 'stat in is that when you do want to run hard for a short period of time you do'nt have the thermal capacidence that you did with the cooler 'stat because your water temperature is already at 185 vs 170. That 15 degrees can really help you out if you are in a bind (for a short period of time) and have sub-par cooling. Once steady state is reach and the 'stat is full open, nothing really matters.

LOL i just love the D/E idea. Wish i could do it.

I'd say anything under 180 and your not getting a *complete* burn. I'm not to sure on it, i know road diesels like it hot, 190-210 range. You want your fuel to burn with a complete combustion. So here's the best idea. Whatever you do most, be it 8kts, 9kts, 14kts try to get your engine to run in the normal TEMP range in your normal speed. If it goes up a little in WOT not to worry it'll handle it.
 
My 12V71ti's run at 173 no matter what load at any rpm above 800, according to the mechanical guages on the engines and confirmed by infrared pryometer.
 
Just for the record. How would you recognize a clean burn? Any fuel unspent would have to end up in your exhaust and on your transom or on the water. I don't see how you could detect something so minute outside of in a lab. My 6-71s run at 170 degrees until 2100 RPM. Then they go to 180 and stay there. I clean my motors out after each run at WOT for 3+ minutes. There is no dark smoke at any time. I don't quite understand the worry . I'm not going to start chaising my tail over such a minute loss of fuel. Even if it even exist. No one has proven that it does exist. Only in thery. I have enough things to worry about when I go boating. Just my 2 cents.


BILL
 

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