Question for you Detroit Guys

[MikeP]

Re blueprinting - As I said, I have never blueprinted a diesel engine so I am baseing my 20% improvement in power and effeciency AND engine life on doing this with lots of gas engines. Since, as has been pointed out, these DDs are old designs and machining, I would think the same gains are possible.

However, I will readily admit that I don't know the level of assembly care that was done on a typical DD. But I find it hard to believe that there was any attempt to keep an engine to any better than the same factory specs that are shown in the service manual for all the various clearances, etc.

There is plenty of evidence for the sometimes dramatic differences blueprinting can make. I think I posted once before of picking up nearly 100HP on a 426 Hemi by just blueprinting with absolutely NO non - oem parts added. Admittedly, that was an extreme example. Something on the order of 40-50HP was a minimum gain for a big block being blueprinted.

 

[luckydave215]

Did anybody happen to watch the 24 hours at LeMans this year.....and watch the Audi diesels LEADING?
Not all diesels are in the stone age.

 

[Trojan]

I don't know of any aluminum engines in mass production in the states at this time. If they were good across the pond you surly would see them here in the states. There are lots of proto type engines. One of a kind type. They have been trying to build aluminum engines for years. If I'm wrong I stand corrected. I had a 300HP 1000CC VW all aluminum. The little diesel toy cars over seas are not much bigger than a lawn mower. That is no accomplishment. I have giant model planes that have glow plug engines all aluminum diesel, but I wouldn't put one in a boat. You can build little aluminum engines but I don't think you will see a big block aluminum for a long time. Not in My life time. Maybe in the future. There is a job for you Krush. Clean out that barn get started. Who knows. A smart young man like you might have the right idea. Go get um. Thats how the others started.


BILL

 

[Pascal]

"Did anybody happen to watch the 24 hours at LeMans this year.....and watch the Audi diesels LEADING?"

not just leading.. winning for the second year in a row with a diesel! after winning 5 years in a row i think with gas.

Bill, are you talking gas alum blocks or diesel ? if gas, then aluminum blocks and heads have been around for decades in europe... Jaguar's Le Mans winning V12 for instance, launched in 71.. while the street version is only around 300hp for 5.3 ltr it's been tuned to well over 650hp ...

not sure what other manufacturers use for their diesel, but jaguar's euro 2.7 ltr twin turbo V6 diesel (200hp/350lbft) is made out of "compacted graphite iron" which they claim is lighter than steel...

 

[Boss Lady]

Maybe we have a metallurgist aboard who can comment on aluminum heads in a marine environment. I would not put aluminum heads on a marine engine for several reasons, first reason is corrosion, I know what happens to cast iron heads, I can only imagine what would happen to aluminum. Second, exhaust gas temperatures are higher 1350 degrees than aluminum's melting point of 1100 degrees, so errosion is a real concern. I like proven technology, I don't like it just for its' own sake.

 

[Brian Degulis]

You will never get a DD to run with any kind of aluminum head made on this planet. Aluminum will not take the heat or the cylinder pressure. They grow to much. If you didn't drop the pan on your rail between runs, you did not have it rung out and you were not a top dog. No offence meant. I could not afford it ether. I had enough trouble keeping 2 motors going for a switch out. I'm up on the front porch now, could not run with the BIG DOGS. So is my neighbor with his BB funny car. LOL You can make them run, but not for long. You need heavy iron......

Detroit Diesel built an aluminum 671 (production engine) I forget the dates of the production run but just take a look in the In Line service manuals and you will find some of the special procedures needed for rebuilding the aluminum engines.

Brian

 

[Boss Lady]

The aluminum block 6-71 Detroits you are refering to were produced exclusively for the military and used in mine sweepers. They have non-magnetic alloys used throughout, and cost 10 times what a regular 6-71 costs. They didn't make them because aluminum is superior, but due to the non-magnetic requirement. Only the government can afford to maintain one of these.

P.S. these engines were only rated at 180 HP, compare that to 450 HP in Covington or Johnson and Towers prepped 6-71s. Hot rodded Detroits are severe duty, plus the continuous drag load a boat places on an engine and it is whole different ball game compared to a road vehicle that may only see max loads 5-10% of the time. I have a new ford f350, the engine is only designed for 150,000 miles. I met some transport guys at that have chipped these engines, and they have to replace the studs that hold down the heads every 10,000 miles due to stretching them and blowing head gaskets. They pull 20,000 lbs trailers.

You can get very high HP from a diesel, albeit for very brief periods of output, anymore and then you will melt something. This is why Detriots are very heavy, if you are going to pull heavy loads for long periods of time the components have to be durable enough to handle the heat and loads applied.

If you want to see some high tech diesels look at Seatek or one of the other off shore racing diesels. Very light, high HP, and 800 hours between overhauls, the US Navy uses these in some Special Operations boats, they do go "BANG" on a regular basis, but then again, they are spending tax dollars to do so. If you want high tech you can have it, just get your wallet out and be prepared to replace them often.

http://www.seatek-spa.com/home_gb.htm

 

[Trojan]

Someone was running a 50+ft diesel offshore racer and it just screamed. So they can be made to push our boats past there limits. But it would be nothing my wallet could afford. I do like the the aluminum approach. Every time I ran nitro in the aluminum VW sand rail. I had to rebuild the heads. It would just melt a little at the head gasket. Alright a lot. The heads were 4 grand a set, but being aluminum I would just weld and machine. Like Mike said Blue printing and Balancing makes all the difference on how long a motor runs. Things are changing every day and some for the better. LOL


BILL

 

[MarioG]

Remember the offshore racing team "Popeyes fried chicken"? They ran a big, Diesel powered cat back in the late 80's early 90's. It was real fast but a real sooty sun of a gun! LOL

 

[Brian Degulis]

The aluminum block 6-71 Detroits you are refering to were produced exclusively for the military and used in mine sweepers. They have non-magnetic alloys used throughout, and cost 10 times what a regular 6-71 costs. They didn't make them because aluminum is superior, but due to the non-magnetic requirement. Only the government can afford to maintain one of these.

I didn't mention that to suggest that aluminum is a good idea only to inform that it can and has been done. BTW the aluminun 671 was not entirely non magentic nor was it produced exclusively for the military. They may have built one as you describe but the engines I'm refering to where comercialy available and some are still around today. I don't know what the cost was but I seriouisly doubt it was 10X the iron engine. Also 175 HP is the commercial or continous duty rating for the iron 671 natural.

Brian

 

[krush]

I don't know of any aluminum engines in mass production in the states at this time. If they were good across the pond you surly would see them here in the states. There are lots of proto type engines. One of a kind type. They have been trying to build aluminum engines for years. If I'm wrong I stand corrected.

yeah, not only is your ignorance uncanny, you accuse me of being a "young know-it-all".

Why don't you look at the cars that have been on the road for the past 20 years? The majority of them are at least aluminum head(s) if not entirely aluminum. The LS1 is all aluminum and that came about in the 90's. Hell most GM's have plastic intake manifolds....OMG THEY ARE JUNK!@#$ You are full of $h*t!

But hey, maybe to get back to your vintage, I know GM produced aluminum engines back in the 60's if not earlier. There were aluminum hemi's too I believe. It's nothing new. You said it can't be done and there are no engines in production; you are wrong. And it's pathetic that somebody with your extensive knowledge and expertise can be ignorant of the past 40+ years of engine technology.

But hey, I'm just a young fool with so much to learn...I'd rather be young with a lot to learn than to be old and have and have "45 years of running engine plants" and still be ignorant. Maybe one day I will be lucky enough to be a "real engineer" like you instead of merely a "wannabe".

 

[Brian Degulis]

Hey Computers Buyers Wharehouse is having a sale on keyboards this weekend Just in case anyone has pounded there's to pieces

Brian

 

[Trojan]

There are not 20 years of majority aluminum engines or heads on the road in the past, nor today. If they would hold up. Every engine on the road would be aluminum. What a weight savings. Your to young to remember all the head warpage of the aluminum heads of years past. Wake up. I though you were smarter than that Krush. Intakes don't get the heat a head or block does. You won't have hardly a hair of knowledge until you get a real job. Books don't teach you everything. Lighten up kid. Your going to meet a lot of ignorant old engineers before you gain the knowledge that they have. I bet you think your Dad is dumb to. I hope you have moved out of the house while you still know everything. LOL How many aluminum airplane engines are there or was there? Don't you think that they would all be aluminum if they could be. Just because of the weight. The mine sweepers were a special build. Not a production build for the public. Smile you can't be correct all the time. I'm not. Look at all the motorcycles that have aluminum motors. They can be built but aluminum as we know it has its limitation and I still think you won't be seeing aluminum Detroit's any time soon. No one said you were a young fool or stupid. If it wasn't for my vintage of engineers you wouldn't have what you have today. Our ignorance and stupidity gave you just about everything you have or know. What are or can you do in your next 40 years. Good luck. It's your turn. I'm retired setting on my boat. LOL Lighten up. Your just a young starting engineer. I'm sure that doctor Jim sees the same thing in the medical field.

BILL

 

[luckydave215]

"There are not 20 years of majority aluminum engines or heads on the road in the past, nor today."

WRONG

"How many aluminum airplane engines are there or was there? "

Uhh,,,ALL of them?

"Look at all the motorcycles that have aluminum motors. "

Yeah, every one ever built, since 1898



Modern Earth calling caveman, wake up!

 

[Finalee]

Remember the Vega. What a fine engine it had. I hope this discussion increases npg and decreases the gph.

 

[luckydave215]

Any of you ever seen a Porsche? Or a Volkswagen? How about (for the older crowd) a Corvair? Modern Corvette maybe? 1963 215 CI buick V-8?
The (OHV straight six with three side draft carbs )engine in my 1938 Bentley is all aluminum, and still runs fine.
Where did this "cast iron is GOD" myth come from? The same fountain of disinformation that gave us the myth about batteries discharging themselves if left on a concrete floor?

Cast iron is dimensionally stable and that's nice, but it's main attraction for a designer is.....IT"S CHEAP!!

 

[krush]

I bet you think your Dad is dumb to. I hope you have moved out of the house while you still know everything.

The sad thing is my old man is JUST LIKE YOU and it DRIVES ME NUTS!!!! hahaha. The other day he said he's a better engineer than I'll ever be...and he doesn't even have a degree in engineering and could never do a simple statics problem.

By the way, most real engineers I meet have PE's, or at the very least, a degree in engineering. Not saying this is a requirement for being a smart person with an understanding of machines and science though.

And for your information, I have worked in "the real world" for multiple years.

edit: oh yeah, and before you blast me more, I was a mechanic (and still am) way before I started in formal "engineering".

 

[67hat34c]

I discussed the plastic engine on another thread about a year ago. but what about using some plastics on intake manifolds etc.

Krush, have you ever studied the plastic 4 cyl engine that Ford made in the early 80's, I saw it in a popular mechanic magazine in about 1982 or so. It was a Pinto engine except that there were only a few ferrous parts such as springs. rest was ceramic or plastic. it had 4 webber carbs and produce about 315hp and the whole thing weighed 75lbs. If you dont know anything about this engine then I bet you can find some data about it.

Guys as far as aluminum engines i cant think of an outboard motor, 2 or 4 stroke made of anything but aluminum.

better to make it out of titanium, what a motor that would be. strong as steel and light as aluminum.

 

[luckydave215]

The problem with titanium as an engine block material is the fact that for all practical purposes it's a thermal insulator, having about 1/50 the thermal conductivity of cast aluminum, and 1/10 that of cast iron. The common alloy used for high strength parts is 6AL-4V (6 percent aluminum, 4 percent vanadium, also known as type 5 TI) and although the yield strength of 190,000 psi is cool, (compared to 35,000 psi for cast meehhanite iron) it's "springy" and not very rigid even though the tensile strength is very high.
4340 (high carbon chrome molybdenum steel) has an ultimate tensile yield value of 300,000 psi in comparison, so titanium isn't the voodo some would believe.
Titanium's main advantage lies in it's high strength to weight ratio, and superior corrosion resistance at less than red hot temperatures. I design and build a lot of hardware, (much of it "sea going)" out ot TI, and for all practical purposes it doesn't corrode in seawater.....ever.

 

[Trojan]

All the aluminum motors discussed have been relatively low compression and small bore motors. There not dealing with the big bore high compression Detroit. Like Luckydave said cast iron is cheap. The Lamborghini 12 cyl I believe is all aluminum. The eagle drag engine is aluminum at 34 grand. The Indy engines are aluminum. Ya you can build them but they don't last. This started out about Detroit's. So far there have been no big bore production high compression aluminum engines in the list. The Indy Offenhauser was aluminum it maxed out at 8psi of boost. The Indy Eagle aluminum Offy replacement maxed out at 12psi boost. The offy was the better motor but because of the boost the Offy went south. The corvette is probably the closest thing in production aluminum engines. And they have there draw backs. Where is that aluminum Buick today. That Bently is no high compression engine ether. Did you ever notice that most aluminum motors are air cooled. Excluding bikes and outboards. The VW was a better engine to modify than the Porsche. All the Porsche did was cost more money for parts and they never ran any better than the VW. But then once you modified the VW there was not much left that was VW. The turbo Corvair never held up ether. BOY did this thread get way off. It started off about aluminum heads on a Detroit. Where is that plastic motor today? Or that ceramic motor they were working on. You can build them but you can't make them last. AH the good old John deer. LOL until I wet my diaper. You can always tell a young engineer, but you can't tell them much. Krush someday your going to need that old mans answers. I have nine children and one of them still ask for info of some type every day. There are no dumb engineers for every thought there is a reason. I'm done, the Viagra is starting to ware off.

BILL

BILL