Marine Maint Price Increases - A Rant

[Passages]

What is going on with marine metals and paints?

I was in W Marine today and walked out with a serious case of sticker shock. Brass/SS Rod holders, up 25% from last year. Sacrificial zinc anodes up 50% and $225 for a gallon of bottom paint.

Have metal commodity prices really gone up that much or is WM getting greedy? If the latter I'll be doing a lot more mail order with Defender and boatfix.

Hey SAMS - want to expand into general maintenance items?

 

[yachtsmanbill]

TWO key words here; CHINA and COPPER. I dont laugh at guys who pick up chunks of wire anymore. Steel is running a close #2. Try buying rigid copper tubing or brass valves-- its nuts!! ws

 

[Jaxfishgyd]

Talk about the price of copper! I've been working for BellSouth for just over 36 yrs now and the company has had to install security cameras in all work yards plus we are required to lock the gate behind us during the day due to the amount of people coming in to haul off the discarded cable we use to leave in bins.

 

[jim rosenthal]

Sad but true....there are occasional items in the local press about people stealing copper tubing, wire, etc, from construction sites, many of which have floodlights and security cameras now.

On a recent thread I posted about thinking of changing the tubing in my boat's Hynautic system; maybe the old copper tubing will be worth something. I hope so; it will be a huge pain to pull it out. The good news is I won't have any trouble getting it hauled away for scrap, now will I?

 

[yachtsmanbill]

Sad but true....there are occasional items in the local press about people stealing copper tubing, wire, etc, from construction sites, many of which have floodlights and security cameras now.

On a recent thread I posted about thinking of changing the tubing in my boat's Hynautic system; maybe the old copper tubing will be worth something. I hope so; it will be a huge pain to pull it out. The good news is I won't have any trouble getting it hauled away for scrap, now will I?

Ya gotta read the SunTimes here for a chuckle every now and then.
"Three COCOLOS electrocuted pulling energized wire from building... Film at eleven..."
Last week scrap #1 copper (clean pipe and wire) was around $3.49 a pound.
I think cast iron was about 12-15 bux a long ton. outrageous!! ws

 

[spartonboat1]

$200,000 worth of copper was stolen in one single action at a Detroit area construction site in the last week or so. I think one trailer was pulled away with that much commodity value.

Surf's up? No...Cu is up

 

[Boss Lady]

China is on a buying spree again, gold, copper, titanium, aluminum, and steel are all at historic highs. They have 1 trillion US dollars to spend, thank you walmart and others. We are in serious trouble. Buy American please. Without manufacturing we will not have a middle class. We are headed back to a two class society. We will be facing two giant economies soon, China and India, we really need to get our crap together soon, before it is too late. We need some serious leadership in Washington on this topic.

Get accustomed to these higher prices, they will be around for some time as china and india's economies emerge, high fuel prices and commodities will only get worse. Just look at copper scrap, it normally would trade at $0.60-$0.90 a pound, now it is four times that at $3.48 a pound. Happy New Year! yea, right

 

[MikeP]

Chris,

I agree with you but much as I don't like it, we're not going to change. I'd say we are going the way of the UK; soon China will be the industrial powerhouse and world market leader as we have been for the past 60-70 years. At least we have the UK's 200 years of the "British Empire" to thank for the fact that English became as close to a universal language as there has ever been. I wouldn't care to go on the internet and find 90%+ sites in Chinese!

Maybe that part won't happen - maybe the Chinese will realize that it will be easier from a global standpoint for them to adopt English generally than it will for the rest of the world to learn Chinese. Then again - with a good proportion of the world's population and ultimately the economic power/influence, they will be in the position to expect everone to speak their language...just as we have during "our" time in the sun.

We've had a good run! But history shows that no one stays on top. If they did, we'd all be speaking Greek/Latin, reading the current news from Rome and wondering who might succeed the current Emperor.

But I'll bet the Chinese will have the same fondness for old Hatts that we do! Wonder how Brigadoon will look cruising the Yangtse? Yes, I think she'll still be around though I won't! And I'll bet some Chinese company will still be making DD parts for her. Might even be a "Sungs" selling Hatt parts that still have the old "Sams" stickers on them!!

 

[jim rosenthal]

Maybe they'll just clone old Hatteras Yachts and the old ones will be available new again....except that I don't buy Chinese stuff when I can avoid it. But it's hard to avoid; I just ordered two boost/pyrometer gauges for my new engines, and the internal meter movements are- you guessed it- made in China. However they are warranteed in the USA etc. I don't buy from WalMart. (I buy PowerKleen products at Tractor Supply) I try VERY hard not to sent $$$ overseas. It is quite difficult not to. You know the world has changed when you feel patriotic about buying something made in Japan- until you find out it's full of Chinese chips and an LCD screen.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

The fact is that it is hard to buy anything that does not have some offshore content. You may not know it, but with a small percentage of foreign parts, they can still stamp it "Made in USA". With the increases in business taxes, healthcare costs, wages, etc, all companies are looking for ways to compete. For many, they have no choice but to produce some of their stuff in China or they will not be around for long. It has become a matter of necessity to survive.

 

[Genesis]

Guys, it is incredibly misplaced to blame this on China or their government.

It starts at home.

$50/hour in total costs to GM for a guy building cars? You're kidding, right? No, actually, you're not. Tell me why that job - which is not really a skilled labor position - is worth that? Because a group of guys got together and thought they'd "squeeze the balls of the rich" to make it happen?

Gee, guess what? The guys with the money don't need to put up with that. At least not for very long.

I have zero - and I do mean zero - sympathy for the box our middle class has put itself into. I shop at WalMart because I refuse to pay more for the same product or service somewhere else. And by "same" I mean same - I'll pay for good service, but I won't pay extra for crappy customer service and worse attitudes.

Reality is that we have thrown our own manufacturing base out of this country by allowing the environmentalists whackos and labor unions to dictate rather than negotiate. Yes, they can strike, but the company can't fire the lot wholesale and replace 'em with non-union. THAT's an unfair labor practice. Nonsense! If you have the right to quit en-masse the employer has the right to replace you en-masse! Let's see some balance.

Bottom line - get educated, and deal with the fact that we live in a global economy. Yes, China has a huge demand for oil. Guess what? We have lots of oil. We just refuse to drill for and recover it, and do so in a way that insures that US resources stay in the United States. We can - we just won't. So we pay $2.50/gallon for fuel and inevitably the next time there's a crisis in the middle east or in venezuela, it'll be $5/gallon. We have only ourselves to blame.

Raw materials are getting more expensive as demand rises. So how about we mine and manufacture some? Oh wait - not in my back yard you don't put that steel mill! Ok. Fine. Pay 5x as much for the rubrail you want, because in your shortsightedness you threw the manufacturing capability out of your neighborhood!

'Nuff rant... Happy New Year!

 

[Maynard Rupp]

Guys, it is incredibly misplaced to blame this on China or their government.

It starts at home.

$50/hour in total costs to GM for a guy building cars? You're kidding, right? No, actually, you're not. Tell me why that job - which is not really a skilled labor position - is worth that? Because a group of guys got together and thought they'd "squeeze the balls of the rich" to make it happen?

Gee, guess what? The guys with the money don't need to put up with that. At least not for very long.

I have zero - and I do mean zero - sympathy for the box our middle class has put itself into. I shop at WalMart because I refuse to pay more for the same product or service somewhere else. And by "same" I mean same - I'll pay for good service, but I won't pay extra for crappy customer service and worse attitudes.

Reality is that we have thrown our own manufacturing base out of this country by allowing the environmentalists whackos and labor unions to dictate rather than negotiate. Yes, they can strike, but the company can't fire the lot wholesale and replace 'em with non-union. THAT's an unfair labor practice. Nonsense! If you have the right to quit en-masse the employer has the right to replace you en-masse! Let's see some balance.

Bottom line - get educated, and deal with the fact that we live in a global economy. Yes, China has a huge demand for oil. Guess what? We have lots of oil. We just refuse to drill for and recover it, and do so in a way that insures that US resources stay in the United States. We can - we just won't. So we pay $2.50/gallon for fuel and inevitably the next time there's a crisis in the middle east or in venezuela, it'll be $5/gallon. We have only ourselves to blame.

Raw materials are getting more expensive as demand rises. So how about we mine and manufacture some? Oh wait - not in my back yard you don't put that steel mill! Ok. Fine. Pay 5x as much for the rubrail you want, because in your shortsightedness you threw the manufacturing capability out of your neighborhood!

'Nuff rant... Happy New Year!

I couldn't have said it better, Karl!!!

 

[Maynard Rupp]

Everybody should read the book "The World is Flat". That will open your eyes for sure. It will also answer the whys of what is happening to US eh? Don't miss that read or get it on CDs.

 

[Dodger]

Everybody should read the book "The World is Flat". That will open your eyes for sure. It will also answer the whys of what is happening to US eh? Don't miss that read or get it on CDs.

I read that book when it came out around Y2K (remember that phrase?) A timely study with following theme: Significant socio-economic changes are on their way, enabled by the maturation of the internet. The genie is out of the bottle and he's not going back in. It is immoral for the west to feel entitled to our current standard of living while denying the same opportunity to the rest of the world. Global resources are not unlimited and global supply/demand --with some speculation - will dictate price. Though the world is changing, significant opportunities remain for those willing to embrace the change and use it to increase customer value.

In other words, if you are approaching 50, there may be some bumps in your carreer but you can probably coast to retirement. If you have children, prepare them to take advantage of the new global paradigm.

 

[Boss Lady]

I agree Karl that the problems are home based. China and India are not the problem they however are influencing the world with their emerging economies and causing available supplies to go up in price in the short term. We have enabled the chinese economy with the rapid movement of manufacturing to china and the influx of US dollars, now we must pay the piper for our sins. The leftist wackos who want to be loved by other countries were all for the free trade crap, and big business was all for it too. Yes environmental concerns and labor unions had a big influence as well. I agree that most of the labor used in auto manufacturing is almost unskilled and they are probably overpaid, but there is very few hours of labor involved with assembly of a car. The labor is the cheapest part of the car cost. I have friend who is a chrysler engineer, and in 1994 I asked him how much it cost them to build the new cherokee we were driving. He said about $6,700 bucks, material, labor and burden. The sticker was $25,000, I asked him why there was so much markup? and he replied that they were greedy and as long as they were selling there was no incentive to reduce the prices. I asked him how much would the dealer pay and he said about $18,000. Now you can understand how they can offer a $10,000 discount on new cars right now. I have a friend at the local Ford dealer, and he recently saw an invoice for a leather seat cover that was shipped from the manufacturer in Dominica, the invoice was for $35 to FoMoCo and the price to the dealership was $400, the customer paid $600. Labor in Vietnam and China is currently $0.20 an hour, but prices have not come down any. Mexico had a very short honeymoon with their $1.50 an hour wages. But they lost out to the Pacific Rim. Henry Ford created the middle class when he paid his workers a wage that would allow them to buy his product. Manufacturing has always been the reason for the blue collar middle class. You cannot replace $25 an hour manufacturing jobs with $8 an hour service jobs and expect things to stay the same. We have been sold out and can no longer afford to stumble from one 4 year administration to the next. We need real strategic planning and focus to maintain our position in the world, other wise China and India with more than one billion citizens each will crush us. As long as the media keeps everyone hipnotized with petty issues and what they call entertainment, everyone will be asleep until it is too late.

Karl is right on this, we need a coherent energy plan now, we need to re-establish manufacturing here now for at least our war making capabilities, we are also subject to food shortages since about 80% of food stuffs come from overseas now . We have EPAed and NIMBYed ourselves into a real problem. Look what happened to California with their power problems, they had real shortages because they wouldn't let anyone build there. Same goes for oil refineries, not one new one has been built in the US in 35 years. off my soapbox.

 

[MikeP]

I agree with the concept of what we SHOULD do. But it won't happen, we're on our way out, China is on it's way in. Their market will be dictating the shots as we have been for a long time. It's not BLAMING the Chinese - it's just the reality of the marketplace.

Might as well adapt to the world as it is, not the world as we'd like it to be (stay). I buy products based on who seems to be making them the best. Japanese products were total junk when I was a kid. Then they became excellent. Now Nikon (for one example) is made outside of Japan. Chinese stuff was junk 10 years ago - now it's not.

I guess the Spanish/French didn't like it much 400 years ago when the English started on their road to world domination...

Sprechen Sie Chinese?

 

[Genesis]

Chris, you're dead flat wrong on the labor issue with vehicles.

GM spends $1525 per car (roughly) on health care. That's more than the STEEL costs. ($5.6 billion a year for GM in costs) And they haven't built the damn car yet!

We haven't been "sold out". You can't sell out an efficient, effective workforce. It costs big money to move call centers and manufacturing overseas. The overhead, not to mention freight bills, are astounding. Why does it work? Because we have priced ourselves out of the labor market, and thought that we could get away with it.

We were (and are) wrong.

The middle class was not "sold out". The blue-collar worker priced himself out of the market, and the market did what it always does - it found the inefficiency and exploited it.

When I was growing up "middle class" was a $25,000 one-income salary living in a 1,200 square foot three-bedroom, one bathroom house. We had six rooms in that home, including the bedrooms and bath. The other two were a kitchen (with enough room for a 4-place dining table and chairs) and a living room big enough for a sofa, B&W television, a rocker and one armchair. It had no air conditioning (it WAS available but too expensive to both buy and use) nor was our TV color (again, available but too expensive.) We had ONE telephone. Oh, and the lawnmower was a push style (YOU propel) and guess who pushed it? Yep. We did have two cars, but only one had A/C, and my Dad drove that to work (25 miles one way); the "family" got the one without, as we only needed it to do things like go to the grocery store.

We live in a global economy and we cannot put that genie back in the bottle. Its out, like it or not. It is our choice to adapt to it or become like the Romans. So far, we're doing a darn good imitation of the Ostrich........ one can only hope it changes, but I do not have high hopes. We live in the world of 30 second TV spot gratification and people who capture our attention with flashy headlines - even when they're flat lies.

I live in a state that happens to have more oil than IRAN buried off its coast. We refuse to go get any of it, because we're worried that someone might see an oil rig lit up at night or there "might be a spill." Ok. Just don't complain when gasoline is $5/gal, and so is your diesel! I, for one, can afford it. But boy, will you hear those people who can't scream when it happens - even though they are the ones who supported the policies that got us there. (I'm all for drilling wherever and whenever the oil happens to be.)

'Nuff ranted for today... more is in my blog; http://genesis3.blogspot.com

 

[Boss Lady]

We need another Reagan type "great communicator", we were on our way down then and he led us out of it. Everyone since him have been idiots. I just don't see anyone coming to the national stage that has the moxie to lead this nation. Just a bunch panderers who want power. The Dems were talking big smack about changing things, now they have the power, but they sure are quite now that they got what they wanted. I think we need some new power brokers, I am tired of voting for the lesser of evils. I want to be able to vote "FOR" somebody instead of "against" the obvious idiot.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

I want to be able to vote "FOR" somebody instead of "against" the obvious idiot.

Yeah, I always feel this way. I sure wish I could vote for the Liberatarian, but since I don't want to throw away my "against" vote, I have to stick with the 2-party system. Pretty frustrating.

Speaking of unions, remember when Reagan replaced the air traffic controllers? Maybe we need a little more of that type of union relations.

 

[Walter P]

The circle of life - economic or otherwise continues....

The Greeks, The Romans, The French, Spain, Portugal, England, USA, and so on.

When the industrial revolution got started, England was on top of the world. They had great inventors, producers, bankers AND a great labor pool. Then the labor force decided to get organized and soon the price of goods became so high that other countries in Europe and other places got in the game. English companies started cutting quality in order to sell their goods at competative prices. Companies started "outsourceing" and soon English products became a joke. Fortunately they have been able to adapt and survive but not like they did before. Middle class my foot.

As long as everyone feels a need to live in a McMansion and drive Luxury cars with all the bells and whistles with a TV, computer and all kinds of "stuff" packed into every space in their house/garage/basement, nothing will change. Now while I frankly admit to liking and enjoying all of the above, I figure why not, it is after all our God given right as Americans. Never mind that my real contribution to GDP probably doesn't warrant the rewards that I enjoy.

I don't think the problem is entirely the fault of high labor. Not when you read about the outrageous compensation packages that top management seems to command. Then the benefit packages, including medical insurance.
Lets not blame the Doctors for their high fees, by the time they pay crazy premiums for malpractice insurance there isn't as much left for them as you may think. I could go on and on as I'm sure most of us could.

The long and the short of it in my opinion is GREED -- on all levels. As long as I get mine the hell with you seems to be the norm. Unrealalistic environmental rules for getting at OUR natural resources, NIMBY's all play a role, but I believe that we will adapt and survive. Americans have always been very resourceful and I believe will continue to be.

Sorry for the long rant but boy I really feel better... Good night and A Happy and Prosperous, Healthy new year to all ..

Walt