Finally!

[Liquid Asset]

Well, After much of a headache we finally got our boat home to Palmetto from Panama City. We encountered some problems but all in all we had a successful trip.

We are still having problems with diry fuel after polishing and it is expected because of the boat sitting for 18 months. I had to change the filters every 2 hours on the way home.

One of the problmes we are having is Soot buildup and extreme black smoke on the starboard engine. Since I am new to detriots, I am not really sure how to start diagnosing this problem, so any suggestions would be welcome.

Another problme is that the engine room vents on the side of the hull are cloged. Miller marine discoverd that if you are running with the engine room door closed, you can not open it from the vacume lock. They think there must be some kind of filters in there and we need to remove/replace. It was too hot yesterday after we got home so I have not checke them yet. What do yall think? Did Hatteras put filters on them? Do you think I need to add another vent?

The final problem I am having is both heads are not working. One is because the hose collapsed because it is 25 years old, the other one is that the vacume pump stopped working. I dont know any information on these. Do yall know where I can get some. I need to check the wiring but I dont know how they are wired and what is actually soposed to happen. One pump has the acumulator tank before it and the other pump has the acumulater tank behind it. Something is definetly not connected right and it NEED to get these working soon so I am not shot by a female family member.

Hopefully you guys can help with this. Sorry for all the questions.

 

[spartonboat1]

My 6-71's leave almost no soot on the transom...frankly I don't any on a 43' MY.

Also, you can check and ensure that the air intake hoses leading from the side intake to the engine room, about the size of clothes dryer hoses, are about 1/3 to 2/3 the height of the engine room from the bilge. A surveyor found one that one that had fallen so that its opening was flush on the bilge floor. That would impede air flow.

What brand and type of head are they? Jabsco water flush, vacuum flush, etc.?

 

[Genesis]

Ok, few things...

First, get the airflow issue sorted out. And DO NOT run the boat with the engines smoking heavily - you will damage them. If you're getting sooting and lots of smoke, you have too little air for the amount of fuel you are trying to burn. An intake airflow restriction will do this, as well as whole host of other things. Start with the simple ones - you know there's an airflow problem, find that and fix it first.

To deal with the fuel issue the best medicine is lots of running time. There's a lot of snake oil out there that supposedly will deal with this - but it really is snake oil and will significantly lighten your wallet, while not really doing much else. A professional tank cleaning can help, but is also expensive and with the baffling will not likely get to all the gunk.

Both heads sound like Vacuflush units. The accumulator tank goes in FRONT of the pump - JUST in front. If its plumbed wrong it will not work correctly at all; that needs corrected. The pumps are available from Sealand but you will NOT like the price. If the motor died its replaceable at a much more reasonable price, but checking the wiring and switch first - there is a vacuum switch in the accumulator that shuts off the pump when the system is "charged". Also check the breaker and switch in the head, and the wiring to all of the above.

The vacuflush system is very simple. There is usually (on Hatts anyway) a power switch (pull to enable) in the head itself. This should ALWAYS be on when the boat is in use - you do not turn it on to use and then off when done. When on (and the breaker is closed) power is applied to the pump motor through the vacuum switch in the tank. The pump runs to pull a vacuum until the switch indicates full vacuum applied, at which point the pump is cut out (the switch is normally closed - that is, closed when no vacuum)

When you flush the head the ball rotates in the carrier, exposing the waste to the venturi in the bottom of the bowl. It is drawn through by the vacuum at high speed and macerated in the process (for solids), and pulled through the accumulator and the pump by inertia. The pump then continues to send it onward to the tank while it recharges the vacuum system for the next use.

The pumps are rebuildable; the use two duck-bill valves on each end (inlet and outlet) and a bellows design. Sealand was nice enough (NOT!) to use LEFT HAND THREADS on the Vacuflush pump bodies to prevent people from using the far cheaper macerator pump they sell as a replacement and putting the double-valve assembly in it. Not nice, but that's how it goes.

When done for the day with the boat fill the bowl with water (lift the foot pedal to do that) and flush one or two full bowls of water through the system, then shut off the vacuum pump with the switch. This will keep the hoses from becoming permeated and stinking....

 

[Liquid Asset]

On the vacume pump itself there is SeaLand printed on it. The Head itself has mansfield on the tag. After having a discussion with my Father I am willing to replace the heads with a newer style if that would be an improvement. Any suggestions appreciated.

 

[Genesis]

Mansfield is the old company, Sealand the new. Same stuff.

The Vacuflush system has a LOT to recommend it; I've got it on my 45C and considered - briefly - changing it out. However, the advantages it offers - outweigh the negatives. Among other things it uses FAR less water - and its FRESH water - than the other alternatives. This means no stinking head, and your holding tank will last a LONG time between dumps.

I'd fix what you have and keep it - even if it means going to the newer design pump/accumulator "all in one" (if you can find a place to fit it) should you decide to replace some of the old stuff.

There isn't much out there that's better unless you're talking Megayacht equipment.

 

[41-Hatteras]

As he stated there are a lot of snake oil out there, I have tryied them and they do not work. I cut holes in the sides of my fuel tanks to clean them I also had inspection plates made. With all the gunk that was inside, noway any fuel polishing or snake oil would have clean them. After you clean them you can keep them clean by fuel polishing, but you have to start with them clean. I had a quoat of $600.00 a baffle to clean these tanks. (I have three each tank) I did them myself for about $400.00 total.
Good luck,
Ron

 

[Pascal]

re: Vacuflush, KEEP THEM!

it's an esxcellent system, often an higher priced options on most boats.

Genesis summed it up well... : head > vac tank > pump > holding tank

you may or you may not have an on / off switch in the head. in theory you don't need one... only if you get a leak and the pump starts kicking in briefly every 30, 15, 5, 1 minutes... there is a vac switch on the vac tank that activates the pump when vac drops to a preset level. these switch can fail, older ones had a plastic washer inside that woudl break newer one have a metal washer... not sure how they fare considering the environment they sit in.

first, make sure you have power at the pump. If you don't, trace the circuit... breaker, switch, hidden fuse, whatever. if you have power at the vac switch but not further up, bypass it.

after that, once you get the pump running, it shoudl build up vacuum. the swooooshhhh when you press the pedal.

if it doesn't the duckbill valves are the prime suspects. they usuallly need replacment every ... 2, 3, 5 years... it's really the only mainteance item on the VF

you cna find them at West, etc... you should have 4 on the pump and sometimes 2 more in the line between the tank and the pump. mine does...

if think the website address is www.sealandtechnology.com or something close, you'll find a ton of info there...

 

[Spellbound]

Call Delmar Marine in Bradenton --- He is the "Sealand" guru for this area.

 

[Liquid Asset]

OK, I think I understand the Vacuflush. Now to do that nasty part and disasemble. I know for a fact that one is hoooked up wrong now and I need to fix it. That is probably why the guest head does not work and collapsed the hose. the tank is after the pump.

In reguards to the black smoke, I do not really know where to start. I am going to clean the airseps, and I know the hull air intakes are messed up, but I ran w/ the engine room door open the whole day so there was plenty of air in the engine room. I have all new injectors and clean fuel. If I clean the airseps and it does not help, what would be something else to check? The CCV? I know it is getting fuel, any suggestions would help. The turbos, heat exchanger and intercooler were just cleaned.

Thanks for the help

 

[Liquid Asset]

Still looking into the vacuflush system. Do you normally have a vacume pump for each head, or do you have one vacume pump and an acumulator for each head? I was looking at dometics website and they show a pump that works for multiple heads. I have a acumulator and pump for each head in the boat.

Plus, Can you replace the toilet parts on these heads? The master will not inject water into the bowl if you pull the handle up. Or should I look at replacing it since it is the really old mansfield model?

 

[Genesis]

You can go either way, but a separate system for each head is better, as it means that two people can use it at once.

You can get parts for all the vacuflish systems - the head internal parts are all the same (cartridge, water valve, etc)

On the black smoke, you have too much fuel going in for the amount of air. This can be due to a bad turbo, restricted exhaust, bad injector(s) or a whole host of other reasons. Describe the smoke - when it starts (RPM), does it smoke at idle, any fuel in the water at idle, etc. Be as specific as you can and I can point you on where to start looking.

What RPM do the engines reach - both at full load (WOT in gear) and no load (in neutral) - you need a phototach for this, as the bridge tachs are notoriously inaccurate.

 

[Pascal]

ideally you should have separate pumps for each head, at least from a redundancy standpoint, but one pump can work with 2 vac tanks and 2 heads.

when you have 1 pump, you need extra duckbills between the pump and each tank (at least that's what i have) so it's 2 extra set to replace every few years...

if you need to open the system, it's not bad if it's empty... you can try using a shop vac to suck out any water left in there, turn off the water pump, press the pedal and try to make a seal at the bottom.

 

[Liquid Asset]

In reguards to the black smoke, everything is normal at idle. there is not any smoke that is noticable. Up to about 1000 RPM's there is not much smoke either. but after that it starts to be noticable and soot the transom. This is why I was thinking it has something to do with the CCV or the air filters.

As I said, about 20 hours ago we got all new injectors the turbos, heat exchangers, intercoolers, were cleaned.

There is no fuel on the water.

Giving you RPM load is not a good Idea because when the Millers in Panama city sent the props out they went back to the label on the prop and we have found that we think we are a little over proped.

There is a definite corolation between when the engine recieves a load to when we start the smoking and sooting. Up to about 1100 RPM's and 8-9kts, thre is not much smoke or soot. it is when you move over that you start to see some smoke and get the sooting.

Hope this helps.

 

[Liquid Asset]

Its not the Water that bothers me in emptying the system. It is that both heads are not working and I am not sure what people used them for when they stoped working. I could be in for a nasty mess.

On the panel in the Heads there is the switch that Genesis said should be left on when using the boat. On that panel there is a red light, does that only go on when the head is building up vacume, or does that mean the switch is on?

 

[MikeP]

You mentioned new injectors. Did this smoke problem exist BEFORE the new injectors were installed and the (hopefully) subsequent rack/governer adjustments were made? Obviously it's a lack of air issue but is it a lack of air because the air filters are clogged/dirty or a surplus of fuel because the wrong injectors are in there? (Since the Heat ex's were cleaned I'm ASSUMING they aren't the cause of any restriction)

Re air filters, I can't imagine a "mechanic" installing all new injectors, doing all the associated adjustments, and NOT putting in new air filters or cleaning the old ones as part of the "tune-up." But who knows.

Do it yourself of be prepared to have it done TO you...

 

[Genesis]

Its not the Water that bothers me in emptying the system. It is that both heads are not working and I am not sure what people used them for when they stoped working. I could be in for a nasty mess.

On the panel in the Heads there is the switch that Genesis said should be left on when using the boat. On that panel there is a red light, does that only go on when the head is building up vacume, or does that mean the switch is on?

Most of these boats are wired so that red light indicates the holding tank is 3/4 full, and is independant of the head power switch.

It SHOULD be labelled.

 

[Genesis]

In reguards to the black smoke, everything is normal at idle. there is not any smoke that is noticable. Up to about 1000 RPM's there is not much smoke either. but after that it starts to be noticable and soot the transom. This is why I was thinking it has something to do with the CCV or the air filters.

Possible. If the air filters are fouled it will be obvious on inspection - remove one and look through it. If its black or you can't see sunlight.....

As I said, about 20 hours ago we got all new injectors the turbos, heat exchangers, intercoolers, were cleaned.

And no sea trial?

Do you have vacuum gauges on the fuel system at the RACORs?

Given your fuel problems its possible the secondary fuel filter (on engine) is plugged. If so you will have low fuel pressure and this will cause a bad pattern, smoke and lack of power. Sounds wierd, but its what happens.

I'm going to ASSUME that the person who did the injector work did it right. However, he may not have. You may have the wrong injectors in the boat, the turbo may be shot, or you may have an airflow problem somewhere (anywhere from air filters to a broken baffle in a muffler)

I would get someone on that boat right way that knows what they're doing with Detroits to look it over. If you were sitll at/near PCB I'd come by and have a peek - I've got the tools and know how to tune them - it'd get figured out. It sounds to me like you got a half-ass job done by whoever did the injector work.

There is no fuel on the water.

Good - then you don't have a blown injector tip (that is a possibility with a new injector; sometimes you get a bad one - and if it happens you need to solve that IMMEDIATELY or you'll trash a cylinder.)

Giving you RPM load is not a good Idea because when the Millers in Panama city sent the props out they went back to the label on the prop and we have found that we think we are a little over proped.

That sucks and needs correction.

There is a definite corolation between when the engine recieves a load to when we start the smoking and sooting. Up to about 1100 RPM's and 8-9kts, thre is not much smoke or soot. it is when you move over that you start to see some smoke and get the sooting.

Hope this helps.

If you're getting sooting over 1100 then something is VERY wrong, and you need someone to look at this immediately. That's not much power demand at all - something's very screwed up.

 

[Liquid Asset]

Talked to the Detroit Mechanic today and he said he thinks it is definetly an air problem because I can get full RPM's. i am going to go ahead and clean or possibly replace the Airsep filters and see what happens. Thanks for the help on this one.

Now on to tackle the heads

 

[Spellbound]

About your heads --- If you are "lost" talk to George Vega @ Delmar Marine in Bradenton -- he is the Sealand distributor for Sarasota/Bradenton. Has all parts and knowledge you need.

 

[OldHatt45]

If there was NO black smoke with the engine room door open, but there is when its closed, those clothes dryer looking hoses are probably filled with salt (you mentioned the boat is approx 25 years old). Had that problem myself. Ripped out the hoses, called Tom Slane (www.slanemarine.com) and got his newer style air vents (234 sq inches of intake area instead ofthe 66 sq inches for the originals). Result..... engine room much cooler, no salt spray in the engine room, and NO black smoke!

Have fun.

OldHatt45