Cold start with warm engines

[labrador]

Well we went to Fla. this weekend to look at boats and saw one we liked. Called the broker again that night and asked if we could see it again in the morning and asked if we could have a cold start. He said he'd ask the owner which he did and we could do that. Went Sat. morning and looked again then down to the engine room. Well it was hot down there and as soon as I touched the engines I found out why. They had been started and warmed up by someone, no one would admit. Cat 3208 425hp with 800 hrs. White smoke from the get go. Continued for 5 minutes at which time I increased to 1000 rpm. Lots more white smoke. As Never had diesels before, is this a problem or maybe just injectors as the broker stated. Seems to me that warm engines should not smoke at all with these hours.
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[MikeP]

You specifically asked for a cold start and they specifically took steps to ENSURE you didn't get one. That seems to me to say all about the engines and the seller that you need to know. I would tell them that and walk away.

 

[SeaEric]

Even healthy 3208's will smoke in COLD weather when started COLD. In Florida, with engines already warm- well, no.

Mike P summed it up pretty accurately.

 

[fissioneng]

...and 425 HP 3208s are not known for longevity or durability. I'm with MikeP and SeaEric. 3208s usually start up with a little blue smoke. I'm not the CAT expert here by any means, but you might want to check into that model of engine before you buy. Lesser horsepower versions (210 NA, 320 T) have a much better track record.

 

[saltshaker]

Well we went to Fla. this weekend to look at boats and saw one we liked. Called the broker again that night and asked if we could see it again in the morning and asked if we could have a cold start. He said he'd ask the owner which he did and we could do that. Went Sat. morning and looked again then down to the engine room. Well it was hot down there and as soon as I touched the engines I found out why. They had been started and warmed up by someone, no one would admit. Cat 3208 425hp with 800 hrs. White smoke from the get go. Continued for 5 minutes at which time I increased to 1000 rpm. Lots more white smoke. As Never had diesels before, is this a problem or maybe just injectors as the broker stated. Seems to me that warm engines should not smoke at all with these hours.
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Walk away. 425HP 3208's are highly stressed and won't give you great service life. Add the fact that they appear to be hiding something and the deal looks even worse. If someone admitted to starting or leaving block heaters on, at least you could say it was a mistake. Don't do business with someone who flat out lies to you.

 

[solanderi]

Maybe its a nice boat. Since they are so respectful of your time just make them an offer with the motors discounted out of the equation. Or if you want to help them as much as they are trying to help you, be more specific about the name of the broker, owner and boat on this site. My $0.02. I'm sure having such an honorable mention on the HOF will get their boat lots of special attention. Don't despair, we looked for our 45C for 6 months from Palm Beach to Key West. Good Luck.

 

[svaron]

When we went down to Marathon FL to sea trial our 'dream boat' that we were under contract with, we specifically asked for a cold start at the beginning of the day. We got to the marina the day of the survey and the boat was just pulling up to the dock... so much for the cold start. We continued with the survey anyway. At the end of the day we walked away from the boat... it stayed on the market for 3 years beyond that. It turned out there were many things wrong with the boat, the engines being the least of it.

2 months later we found the sister-ship to that boat (one hull number apart) and have enjoyed every minute of ownership since. Wait and don't settle...your boat is out there...

 

[Genesis]

Well we went to Fla. this weekend to look at boats and saw one we liked. Called the broker again that night and asked if we could see it again in the morning and asked if we could have a cold start. He said he'd ask the owner which he did and we could do that. Went Sat. morning and looked again then down to the engine room. Well it was hot down there and as soon as I touched the engines I found out why. They had been started and warmed up by someone, no one would admit. Cat 3208 425hp with 800 hrs. White smoke from the get go. Continued for 5 minutes at which time I increased to 1000 rpm. Lots more white smoke. As Never had diesels before, is this a problem or maybe just injectors as the broker stated. Seems to me that warm engines should not smoke at all with these hours.
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You were intentionally deceived. That's the end of the deal if I'm the guy doing the looking.

And yes, it's a problem; whether serious or not is impossible to determine without some investigation, but once you determine you're dealing with someone who will intentionally screw with you, why would you want to transact a business deal with them?

Walk away while it's still free to do so.

 

[jmencel]

I agree you should walk away. 3208's pushed to 425 hp have turbo chargers and after coolers to get the HP this high, and have shorter lives due to the heat and stress of a higher HP engine. Rule of thumb is that hp on diesels should not exceed much more than 50% of displacement or shorten engine life will result. These engine are about 640 cubic inches, so around 320 hp is about as high as you want to go to get long reliable engine life. My 320 hp 3208 (1200 hrs) do not smoke excessively on start up, and certainly not much at all when they are warm. It clears within minutes. White smoke is usually a bad thing ... usually caused by water entering the combustion chamber somewhere.

 

[jmencel]

By the way, injector issues will usually cause sooty or black smoke as fuel is not being totally burned (particularly during hard acceleration), not white smoke. despite what the broker told you. Cat 3209 injectors according to the service manual should be serviced every 900 hours. Pulling and cleaning 16 injectors is not an inexpensive proposition if you are paying a diesel mechanic $90 an hour. But from what you describe the problem is likely much more serious than injectors.

CAT 3208's are very reliable and long lasting engines as long as they are well maintained (oil changed) and the HP is not pushed way up.

 

[Avenger]

Bad injectors most certainly can cause white smoke. White smoke on a diesel is usually unburned fuel. While it is possible for it to be a water problem you'll be able to identify that easily by the smell of the exhaust. Also, the general rule of thumb is to stay below 1 hp per cu in the 3208 however is an exception and 50% is a better number on that particular application.

 

[captddis]

The 425's are real smokers while idling and cold. Cat installed block heaters at the factory on them. Usually if the smoke clears under load they are OK.

There were some aftercooler issues but not really a bad engine. The 3208's were up to 450 HP at the end of the run. Tey had prototype 475's but never went into production.

FWIW the early C series Cummins are the same way. Smoke like hell until put under load.

 

[Boatsb]

Dave correct me if I am wrong but the rule of thumb I remember for smoke is

1) Black smoke is not enough air

2) White smoke is too much fuel

3) Blue smoke id crankcase oil

4) sweet smoke ( smell ) is antifreeze

An old timer explained this to me long ago. It was a bit hard to understand that you could have too much fuel and it was not going to cause black smoke because there was enough air to burn it.

 

[captddis]

Thats right. The 3208's have a keystone ring that needs pressure on it to seal. They lower the compression on the HO engines so not enough heat to cleanly burn fuel unloaded. Once underload the heat increases and the fuel is burned. The test of a 3208's health is a crank case pressure [blowby] test and or a leakdown test.

 

[saltshaker]

Thats right. The 3208's have a keystone ring that needs pressure on it to seal. They lower the compression on the HO engines so not enough heat to cleanly burn fuel unloaded. Once underload the heat increases and the fuel is burned. The test of a 3208's health is a crank case pressure [blowby] test and or a leakdown test.

Is this the same with those early Cummins? I always wondered why they smoked so much. My neighbor is on his second new Viking with Mans. Both boats smoked a lot on start up. The new one has the common rail engines and seems a bit better but she still smokes on a cold start, even during the summer months.

FWIW I had lots of white smoke when I lost one cylinder on my 6V92TA. Heard a clunk on start up and then lots of smoke . That was due to the dead cylinder not burning the fuel, not coolant or water.

 

[captddis]

Is this the same with those early Cummins? I always wondered why they smoked so much. My neighbor is on his second new Viking with Mans. Both boats smoked a lot on start up. The new one has the common rail engines and seems a bit better but she still smokes on a cold start, even during the summer months.

FWIW I had lots of white smoke when I lost one cylinder on my 6V92TA. Heard a clunk on start up and then lots of smoke . That was due to the dead cylinder not burning the fuel, not coolant or water.

I have a customer with a very nice 42C that was repowered with 450C Cummins in 1998. His detroit powered dock neighbors all ran when he lit it off. Engines were 1 year old at the time, Cummins came out and asked"whats the problem, they all do that".
Cummins did come out with new injectors that make a huge difference, and if you bitched enough they would do the update.

Block heaters make a huge difference and I install the pad heaters on most of them.

Funny that everybody throws darts at our Detroits that start smoke free when they are healthy. And when they have start up smoke the surveyors condemn them, but accept it as normal on all the others.

 

[hibanx]

Is it possible that the block heaters were unintentionally left on. Maybe they intended to give you a cold start, but forgot to shut off the block heaters???

 

[MikeP]

"His detroit powered dock neighbors all ran when he lit it off. "

WOW! If DD guys ran off those engines must have been SERIOUSLY smoky!

"Funny that everybody throws darts at our Detroits that start smoke free when they are healthy."

Never seen a non-smoking marine DD on startup though I've heard those claims. There are 13 or 14 53/58 Hatts at our marina - they all smoke considerably on cold start up. Every other DD boat in the marina also does the same thing. I'd like to see one of these smoke-free DDs on startup; maybe somebody could post a video!

COLD startup - no cheating with blockheaters or runup prior!

 

[whaler23]

My 36 Hatt has 3160 Cats the predecessor to the 3208. The only difference being the injection pump. Cold start up summer/winter whenever is always smokey white. Until they start warming up, about 5 minutes most days for me, they will smoke plenty. Once warm and/or under load they don't smoke at all and second day restarts are nearly smoke free. I've run these engines for nearly 8 years now with nothing more than routine fuel/oil filter changes and one tune up about 4 years ago. Great and fuel efficient engines. Of course mine are Naturals rated at 210HP. That's about 3 cubic inches for every 1 horsepower...

 

[labrador]

Many thanks for all the replies, guess I'm going to pass on this one and keep looking. Maybe something will pop up closer to home soon.
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