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Cold start with warm engines

  • Thread starter Thread starter labrador
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Mike: Mine didn't smoke on a cold start until outside air temps got down into the 60s or thereabouts, other than a puff on the initial light-off and a bit of wisping until they warmed up a bit.

With heaters off on a cold morning they'd smoke good on a cold start but within a couple of minutes they'd clean right up.

I put thermostatic controls on the Wolverine pad heaters (two 250W per engine; one on the oil pan side, the other on the oil cooler housing) and they would permit a cold start down to 40F without hesitation or material amounts of smoke. I had them set to turn on when the engine room temperature went under 70F.

There were a bunch of guys on my dock with Detroits that smoked like hell on a cold start, but most of them were fishermen that would run those things with compression well under minimums rather than pay for a set of kits - they'll keep running but they're NASTY in that condition until they get a good load on 'em and heat up. 6-71TIBs were known to trash the back two cylinders way before any of the others and they'd smoke like hell even though they appeared to be running fine - if you pulled a compression on them you'd find that when cold and not under load the back two cylinders were basically not firing at all!
 
Well - mine smoke plenty on cold start and I suppose they may be in bad shape though when I bought the boat there was less than 800 hours on both rebuilt engines and they both acted exactly the same then and now. So I guess it's possible that I have never actually seen a marine DD that was in proper spec/tune, including my own. Since I didn't do the engine rebuilds, I have no idea how well they were actually done. My impression, based on general appearance of things is that they were NOT pulled from the boat.

So as we have discussed previously, if done in place, it may be that mine were not clearanced properly since although it CAN be done on the boat, it's pretty difficult. Again, maybe I've just never seen a "good one."

OTOH, the 58MY (92's) across from us at the marina had both engines pulled from the boat and rebuilt a few months ago by well-known DD guys. They smoke plenty at cold start up but once warmed up/cruising they don't - pretty much like the other Hatts at the marina. He complained about the smoke and they were going to send some mechanics to the boat to check/retune as necessary but I haven't been there since so I don't know the results.
 
labrador said:
Many thanks for all the replies, guess I'm going to pass on this one and keep looking. Maybe something will pop up closer to home soon.
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If you like the boat and the price is adjusted for the engine conditions whats the problem? We bought our boat 9 years old with 500 hours on the engines. The first owner bought it new and soon after his wife fell Ill and didnt get much use out of the boat. The second owner kept it at the Ft Lauderdale YC and used it to change his clothes to play tennis and a afternoon tryst. The boat did a lot of sitting. RPM diesel had done a engine survey for a previous prospective buyer and basicly condemed the engines. We put in a low ball bid factoring in complete RB's and then some. Our offer was accepted. I took the boat up to FLA Diesel on the new river to give us a quote on the engine work. The service mgr pulled me aside and told me he'd be glad to take our money but all the boat needed was some clean fuel and some good hard runs. At the time I couldnt get over 1800 rpm. (nobody did fuel polishing back then) So I bought 2 cases of fuel filters and started running the boat after about 30 hours the rpm's started coming up the engines quit smoking and at 100 hours they tached right up to 2300rpm. Pocketed the RB money and ran for another 6000 hours and 20 years before we tore them down and that was only because the injector tubes started leaking and losing water.
You might have a pair of blown motors but maybe they just need to be run.
 
MikeP said:
the 58MY (92's) across from us at the marina had both engines pulled from the boat and rebuilt a few months ago by well-known DD guys.
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Mike, how did they overcome the joys of getting these motors out of the boat. Was it a galley up or galley down 58MY?
 
Angela said:
Mike, how did they overcome the joys of getting these motors out of the boat. Was it a galley up or galley down 58MY?
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why would u pull the blocks unless they were cracked?
 
rsmith said:
why would u pull the blocks unless they were cracked?
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My recollection is that it has something to do with the journal and dyno-testing, and a "crap shoot" if you don't get them out to rebuild. Genesis can explain it. It's been a while since I visited the subject, but I'm always intrigued by the guts of these beasts.

If I were to get them out, I think I'd just prefer to repower with something a tad smaller in footprint and with TwinDisc.
 
You can't dyno-test 'em in the boat. You can if they're out.

It's also much easier to work on the bottom end (in particular) when it's out and on a stand. It's actually PLEASANT, as opposed to a royal pain in the butt.

Can you do a good job in the boat? Sure. The bigger the boat and the more room to work, the easier.

TIs do a less-good job than TAs on charge-air temperature control and in my experience smoke more when cold, all other things being equal. The 6-71TIBs always seem to smoke when cold. 6V92TAs, not usually (assuming reasonable outside temperatures, which I define as "short sleeve" or "bathingsuit" weather.) The difference is quite noticeable where the water is cool. In the summer in Miami, it doesn't much matter :)

The worst 6-71TIB I've ever seen that was still running was a pair in a POST I looked at. Both rear rear cylinders were later proved up below minimums and she smoked like HELL even after a fair bit of dockside warm-up time.
 
"Mike, how did they overcome the joys of getting these motors out of the boat. Was it a galley up or galley down 58MY?"

It's a galley-down 58; I didn't ask how they got the engines out and now that I think about it, I can't believe I didn't! The husband/wife drove the boat from the marina in Ches bay up the Delaware on one not-so great engine to the Diesel place in NJ. The other engine had "blown" a few weeks earlier while out cruising - seriously blown, as in crankshaft/main bearing parts laying in oil pan. Rumor has it that the rebuilds were very close to 70k.

If that happened to my boat and they told me it would be 70k to fix; I would be the owner of a stationary floating apartment! :)
 
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There are machining steps that can not be done in the boat. if it's just a parts swap no big deal but if I could get the block tanked and cleaned. have all the machined surfaces checked and resurfaced where necessary. bench run and dynoed why not? Also the clean environment and the ability to paint it all nice before re installing come to mind.
 
MikeP said:
"His detroit powered dock neighbors all ran when he lit it off. "

WOW! If DD guys ran off those engines must have been SERIOUSLY smoky!

"Funny that everybody throws darts at our Detroits that start smoke free when they are healthy."

Never seen a non-smoking marine DD on startup though I've heard those claims. There are 13 or 14 53/58 Hatts at our marina - they all smoke considerably on cold start up. Every other DD boat in the marina also does the same thing. I'd like to see one of these smoke-free DDs on startup; maybe somebody could post a video! ;)

COLD startup - no cheating with blockheaters or runup prior! :)
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Mike,
How much money are you willing to lose? I will start detroits that have been sitting a month and there will be NO smoke. Buy a ticket to FL and see.
 
I own them detroits.

If I am unable to get to the boat for a month I still get no smoke at startup.

Oh I have lots of hours on them too.

By the way I need to find the physics here.


How do you get a cold start from a warm engine? If the engines are warn it can not be a cold start.
 
I think the engines should be balanced and blueprinted too. NOT!!!! you guys are too stuck on theoretical overkill. these are sloppy crude 1940's technology Detroits not some Indy car 10,000rpm engine. And after all the dyno and machining ur going to run around at 8kts cause ur afraid to push up the throttles and wear the engines out? Give me a break!
 
If you have walk in e/r just lift the suckers up and then it's a lot easier to work that lower end. When I had to replace a kit on one of my 12's, the mechanic had the head off and the old kit out in the same day. Mind you I had all the injectors etc out ahead of time.
 
My 6V92TA's don't smoke unless it's cold out. Even then the smoke will clear in 10-15 seconds. The port engine was just rebuilt and there is next to no smoke when started. Starboard has a little but not like many newer diesels. Mine was done in the boat and seems to be done right. I guess time will tell.

The 8V92's in the 58MY probably came out through the salon door. Once the engines are thinned down they're not that wide. My 8v71's came out that way and the 6v92's went in the same way. My salon door is narrower than that of a MY so if the engines can come up through the salon floor then they should be able to go out the door. On the bigger MY's with 12v71's they cut the hull side and slide them out or they cut the cabin top and pick them up.

As for 70K to rebuild a pair of 8V92's, that's not too bad considering one needed a crank and both had to come out of the boat. Detroit shops are quoting as much as 4.5K per hole providing you have good cores. I recently looked at at boat that had a repair bill for 106K to rebuild 1 12V92TA in frame. That has to be a record.
 
saltshaker said:
The 8V92's in the 58MY probably came out through the salon door.
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I was curious because there is only 22" to get them up the stairs, 22" to get them through the door between the pilothouse and the salon/galley (for galley up) to get to the salon (then you're home free), and 23" if you go out the pilothouse side doors if you go that route. I've seen the hole in the side thing before, but wanted to hear about other ways people with these partciular models have actually done it given the harsh limitations. To bring them up through the floor, that means demolishing part of the pilothouse and maybe the "heavy end" of the galley (stove, refrigerator and cabinetry)....now you can understand my curiosity. :) This is why the washer/dryer had to go over the railing and down the forward hatch (after stripping all of the trim off the hatch).
 
captddis said:
Mike,
How much money are you willing to lose? I will start detroits that have been sitting a month and there will be NO smoke. Buy a ticket to FL and see.
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And then he can come over here to Miami and I'll show him another no-smoker. :D
 
Angela said:
I was curious because there is only 22" to get them up the stairs, 22" to get them through the door between the pilothouse and the salon/galley (for galley up) to get to the salon (then you're home free), and 23" if you go out the pilothouse side doors if you go that route. I've seen the hole in the side thing before, but wanted to hear about other ways people with these partciular models have actually done it given the harsh limitations. To bring them up through the floor, that means demolishing part of the pilothouse and maybe the "heavy end" of the galley (stove, refrigerator and cabinetry)....now you can understand my curiosity. :) This is why the washer/dryer had to go over the railing and down the forward hatch (after stripping all of the trim off the hatch).
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Lift them up through the hatch, put them on a dolly and push them through the salon and pick them up and off with a lift truck from the high and dry.
 
Angela said:
And then he can come over here to Miami and I'll show him another no-smoker. :D
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I like when they smoke it pisses off my green panted golfer neighbors. Why would you buy a house in a boating comunity if you hate boats?
 
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captddis said:
Lift them up through the hatch, put them on a dolly and push them through the salon and pick them up and off with a lift truck from the high and dry.
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What hatch????? The only stinkin' hatch is the one we'd have to cut. Unless there is a hidden hatch that is somewhere between the salon floor and the ER ceiling and even then, we'd have to starting cutting to find it.
 
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