Rudder Work Labor Hours

[capttonyf]

Looking for advice. Do any of you mechanics on here know approx how many hours of labor it should take to: Assuming a boats in yard with tools on hand and a Labor rate of $100 per Hour this is the Hours/Rate I'm being told

1. Remove and Replace two rudders. 7.9 Hours
2. Replace Lower Rudder Bearings 5.5 Hours
3. Replace Upper Rudder Bearings and Collers 5.5 Hours
4. Replace Rudder Packing 3.1 Hours
5. Replace Worn Tiller ends 1.71 Hours
6. Replace Main Engine Seacock 11.43 Hours
7. Replace 6 Cutless Bearings 16.39 Hors
8. Replace/Rebed Rudder bolt for bonding wire 1.8 Hours
9. Install new shaft 3.6 Hours
10. Install new dripless shaft seals 22.18 Hours
11. Install Customer provided Bilge Pump 3.15 Hours
12. Scrape, sand, clean bottom, running gear and Strainers. 22.5 Hours
13. Apply Prop Speed 2.17 Hours
14. The Kicker, Inspect Through Hulls/Seacocks and advise 1.80 Hours
15. Remove and install props inspect running gear, advise 4.1 Hours


You would think that some of the labor would overlap. Such as rudder removal/replace and Rudder Packing. Dripless seals and replacing of one shaft that was already out and going back in anyway, along with removing and installing wheels.

Any Thoughts would be appriciated.

Thanks

Tony

 

[ian w]

These hours are ridiculous,go and get a quote from another yard.

 

[Boatsb]

Who did you piss off?

I would say they are all worst case scenario but then again I changed out my stuffing box hoses.

Port took 18 hours, Starboard took 4.

It depends on what is rusted, stuck, jammed or otherwise difficult to do.

 

[Cricket]

Wow that's almost 113 hours of labor, would think 2 guys could knock the list out in 3 x 10 hour days or less, so 60 hrs. Guess you shouldn't have driven the Bentley to the boatyard.

 

[capttonyf]

These hours are ridiculous,go and get a quote from another yard.

That's not a quote, It's part of a bill.

1. Bottom Job with Interlux Ultra w/ Biolux 1 coat, 2 coats on waterline
2. Propspeed
3. Replace Rudder packing and Upper and Lower rudder bearings
4. Replace 6 Cutless Bearings
5. Main engine seacock
6. 2 new dripless shaft seals
7. 1 New Shaft
8. Re tooled props. Balanced and rebored from 2 1/4 to 2 inches
9. Buffed and polished the hull
10. New Zincs
11. Replaced bilge pump and float switch I provided

Parts $13,930.51 $2978 of which went to prop shop
Labor $10,686.50
Total $24,616.50
Plus Shipyard Liability and Tax
$27,111.69

Just wanting some insight because I now have to go hear their justification for these hours

Thanks Agian

Tony

 

[SEVEN]

Rip off. Did they give you a written estimate?

 

[Boatsb]

That's not a quote, It's part of a bill.

1. Bottom Job with Interlux Ultra w/ Biolux 1 coat, 2 coats on waterline
2. Propspeed
3. Replace Rudder packing and Upper and Lower rudder bearings
4. Replace 6 Cutless Bearings
5. Main engine seacock
6. 2 new dripless shaft seals
7. 1 New Shaft
8. Re tooled props. Balanced and rebored from 2 1/4 to 2 inches
9. Buffed and polished the hull
10. New Zincs
11. Replaced bilge pump and float switch I provided

Parts $13,930.51 $2978 of which went to prop shop
Labor $10,686.50
Total $24,616.50
Plus Shipyard Liability and Tax
$27,111.69

Just wanting some insight because I now have to go hear their justification for these hours

Thanks Agian

Tony

Bottom job with 1 coat? We use 2 coats and a 3rd on the waterline and with micron 66 it's about $40-45 a foot.

I'd ask to see the hourly for the workers. It's possible they are that slow. Then again if nothing went easy it's possible.

 

[workingonadream]

get outside prices.i can tell you that I did my rudders and bearings with another guy in around 4-5hrs or so. as for the cutlass bearings, if the shafts are out I cant see it taking that much time, all you have to do is cut the old ones out and press the new ones in. I agree that those prices are very high, and you are right that some of the labor does overlap.i would ask around to find out who people are using in your area and get other prices. good luck

 

[capttonyf]

Rip off. Did they give you a written estimate?

Initially, on the bottom job. Which was inline with other yard quotes. Then as a few other developments were discovered and the boat was apart they gave me a few rough estimates, then they discovered a crack in the shaft and the cause and I told them to make it right, because I couldn't run it out of there like that.

My biggest concern is it seems that some of the work overlaps, Like i'm being charged double for some things.

Tony

 

[capttonyf]

Just looked, Does anyone know cost of 6, "2 inch" Cutless Bearings?
Was Charged $1188.79 Seems High

Main engine seacock and new length of hose $811 plus Labor $1143. So $2000 to replace a seacock and few feet of Raw water Hose

Tiller Rod Ends $205 plus $171 Labor, Not crazy but not sure.

This one gets me New shaft seals Parts $1195 Labor $2218 and 1 shaft was already out for replacement.

Not all but most of what I'm looking at seems high.

Tony

 

[capttonyf]

Bottom job with 1 coat? We use 2 coats and a 3rd on the waterline and with micron 66 it's about $40-45 a foot.

I'd ask to see the hourly for the workers. It's possible they are that slow. Then again if nothing went easy it's possible.

The only snag they ran into he told me before I got the bill was one rudder hung up and it took them a couple hours to get it out. Other than that he said everything went smooth.

Even the bottom we always have a diver on it.

I've seen how some yard workers meander around while on someones clock. They forget a tool, then stop and talk on the way back then get to work, then need another scew size or acetone so he gets up walks around again, has a smoke and then 3.5 hours later the bilge pump is in. Then they turn in their time card for each boat and the secratery adds it up. Hopefully this is the case they work with me on this.

Tony

 

[Angela]

When I was a naive, new Hatteras owner, my first couple of yard bills were like that. That is what lead me to sitting there all day, noting on a pad of paper who came and went and at what times. We were always able to negotiate the bill when the work was done because we were clearly being way overcharged on the work hours.

The yard owner then admitted that he takes the time from some book of estimates and uses that as his billing source. That is a little hard to argue when the owner or captain, whoever, has a list of all the time actually spent. My last yard bill was half of what my first bottom job was....and we sandblasted everything off and started over, and repaired about 1,000 blisters.. Still half.

I understand they charge around $100/hours, and I'm willing to pay that, but only for the hours spent working on my boat, not what some number in a book says it should take. If it's more, I'll pay it; if it's less, I won't. I think that's fair.

 

[capttonyf]

When I was a naive, new Hatteras owner, my first couple of yard bills were like that. That is what lead me to sitting there all day, noting on a pad of paper who came and went and at what times. We were always able to negotiate the bill when the work was done because we were clearly being way overcharged on the work hours.

The yard owner then admitted that he takes the time from some book of estimates and uses that as his billing source. That is a little hard to argue when the owner or captain, whoever, has a list of all the time actually spent. My last yard bill was half of what my first bottom job was....and we sandblasted everything off and started over, and repaired about 1,000 blisters.. Still half.

I understand they charge around $100/hours, and I'm willing to pay that, but only for the hours spent working on my boat, not what some number in a book says it should take. If it's more, I'll pay it; if it's less, I won't. I think that's fair.

I completely understand and that's why I used to keep track like you when I worked on boats. It's not really the yards fault as much as the workers time cards that they turn in. Problem is now I work in PA and like to use my boat when on vacation, Not babysit it in the yard. I've had many owners boats in this yard in the past and always watched and it was fair so I figured it would be if I wasn't there as well. I'm hoping they will work with me on this because they always do good work. I'm just not the typical absentee owner with 10's of Millions lying around looking for a write that just gets the bill and sends it without making sure it's correct.

Like you, if it's justified I'll pay it. I'm just not sure if this is.

Tony

 

[GJH]

That's list price on the cutlass bearings.

http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com/marine-bearings/nonmetallic-inch-cutless-bearings

 

[capttonyf]

That's list price on the cutlass bearings.

http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com/marine-bearings/nonmetallic-inch-cutless-bearings

Yep,,, that was another thing I noticed. I want them to make moey but full retail on every part and max total hour limits on each task is a bit much.

I'm going to try to get them to discount the parts a little and I've also requested the Time Cards of the workers who checked in and out on our boat. I'll see how long that takes. If they really went off time cards on our boat to make up the bill they should have that readily available. If they don't have those cards ready to go then I know they made up the rates. I requested that around lunch time. I'm leaning toward they didn't look at the time cards while making up my invoice. I'll see tomarrow I guess.

Tony

 

[dsharp]

Those prices are for non-metallic cutlass bearings, so the brass sleeve bearings may be higher. Some of the hours seem on the high side. When you replace a rudder box you pack it before you bolt it in.Three men can knock out a bottom job in 4 hours, so about 12 man hours. I've seen bent rudders that can take 3-4 hours to get out, but that's fairly rare.

 

[dottieshusband]

Most shops have a substantial markup on parts to cover overhead, 100% mark up is not unusual at your local car stealership. Good luck with "negotiating" a price after the fact. The craftsman is entitled to be paid the full value of his work, and as long as the quality of the work is ordinary, reasonable, and customary. You are in a weak bargaining position (assuming you don't have written good faith estimate and baring approved written change orders), and the yard can put a lien on your vessel. Unfortunate in any event, hope you can work it out.

 

[capttonyf]

Most shops have a substantial markup on parts to cover overhead, 100% mark up is not unusual at your local car stealership. Good luck with "negotiating" a price after the fact. The craftsman is entitled to be paid the full value of his work, and as long as the quality of the work is ordinary, reasonable, and customary. You are in a weak bargaining position (assuming you don't have written good faith estimate and baring approved written change orders), and the yard can put a lien on your vessel. Unfortunate in any event, hope you can work it out.

I would never take it to the point of causing a major argument and them wanting to place a lien. I understand just like any of us in business that they need to make a fair profit and a living. That's normal and whats right. Lets face it, if it wasn't for profit, non of us would own a boat.

My problem is, I just want it to be "Fair" profit. I've asked for the time cards, and if they can show and justify it I'm fine with it. I just think they're little high on some of this stuff. A true professional mechanic should not take over 3 hours to replace an existing bilge pump. Unless they had to travel to the boat, 1 hour should be sufficient. Turn the breaker off and It's two screws in the base, two hose clamps, to wire butt connectors and some shrink rap on the butt connectors. I'm NOT a professional and I could change it out less than a half hour.

I'm still waiting on the time cards I requested yesterday which is telling me they never looked at them and just threw some approx labor rates on there out of a estimate book. If they truely went off time cards, the cards would be attached to their in house bill with the totals already added up.

Tony

 

[Tim Powell]

Get a hold of Roger Worthington he is at Kolertor genorator . He may have the labor book Hatteras used to pay their dealers by. I have seen one a long time ago at Cannon Boat workes they made repairs for hatteras as well as launched the boats comming from Highpoint. Jarret bay may still be a dealer for Hatteras call them and ask the prices they will give you a quote.

MAN I BELIVE YOU GOT PLUCKED!!!! IN A LOT OF THE PLACES.

 

[capttonyf]

Task, Under: Replace Upper Rudder Bearings and Collars:

Heat nuts-Jacking Nuts (2) REMOVE ALL (4) repplace and cut packing-install packing gland.
2.0 Hours

Drill Holes in plate, cut out center of (2) Plates- Mounting place on boat(Upper Bearings Plate) install collars 2.24 Hours


Next Task, Then Under: Replace Rudder Packing: Remove and replace packing. 3.43 Hours

My question is wouldn't the packing have to be removed when the rudders were dropped from the boat and the bearings were replaced? Then it states above, cut packing, install in packing gland.
Are there two packing glands per rudder, am I missing something, wouldn't this appear they're doing the same thing twice? I've never done it, only watched on other boats and can't fully remember how it all goes together but it seems I'm missing something here.

Keep in mind those hours are just to remove the bearings. The rudder removal was a completely seperate charge. That was 8.8 Hours to remove and reinstall rudders, it has nothing to do with this.

Lastly it was 4 hours of labor additional to remove Lower Bearings, and another 2.57 Hours to reinstall lower bearings. That's 6.57 Hours to remove and reinstall lower bearing only. Is there something special about them that it should take that long. I'd think after an hour if I didn't have them out I'd assume I didn't know how and ask for help. Again, hours have nothing to do with rudder removal. Just bearings. Is this normal, are they super complicated bearings or should I get more grease out for myself?

Tony