What is Hatteras doing? I'm Beginning to Worry!

[jim rosenthal]

I gave up on the return of a mid-sized Hatteras when they bought Cabo. I think until that time, there was actually serious talk of Hatteras returning to the 45-foot size market. Not now.

I am not a fan of the modern Hatteras look, but I am not a potential customer for a new hatteras, either, so my opinion doesn't count. I think if they build a genuinely advanced new boat or series of boats, with improvements in economy of operation and maintenance, simpler systems, and the quality that made the company a legend, they can still find a solid place in the market. They need to develop a pod-drive boat (they should partner with Slane to do this IMHO, since he already has a worked-out design ready to build) and they should look at smaller motor yachts and expand their customer base. We'll see how this all plays out.

 

[Red Hatt]

All i here about is how great a viking yachts is but think about all the different Models they have made ; just about one of every size so why would you buy a 60 when the next year they will make a 61 . I don;t think a viking is much better than an Ocean yacht. just cost more . I had a friend that owned a 48 viking new model - all the gelcoat went bad and they would not stand behind repairing the boat or paying to have it repainted. He had to pay for a 60,000. paint job and then he sold the boat for fear the cracking would come back through into the new paint. This just what i have observed.

 

[capttonyf]

All i here about is how great a viking yachts is but think about all the different Models they have made ; just about one of every size so why would you buy a 60 when the next year they will make a 61 . I don;t think a viking is much better than an Ocean yacht. just cost more . I had a friend that owned a 48 viking new model - all the gelcoat went bad and they would not stand behind repairing the boat or paying to have it repainted. He had to pay for a 60,000. paint job and then he sold the boat for fear the cracking would come back through into the new paint. This just what i have observed.

I agree Viking just like all the other manufactures have issue and make mistakes from time to time, and if he is the original buyer I would think Viking should have stood by its Hazing/cracking of Gel Coat depending on age and use of boat of course. Hatteras I believe has the strongest and best built boats especially in the past, But Viking is giving the customer what they want better than anyone else out there right now. Hopefully Hatteras can work there way back into the game. As far as "Ocean Yachts", Not even in the same league as Viking. Oceans Joinery wood work and hardware inside resembles a low end RV trailer, not to offend any RV owners as I am one, but Viking is night and day better than Ocean and comparable if not even a little better than Hatteras as well in that department. Viking Exterior fit and finish as well as it's solid feeling when hitting a big wave is much much better than an Ocean also. Viking's newer hull designs are night and day better than their older designs and they do give a solid ride compared to the banging and drum sounding of uncertainty that Ocean gives you. Not to knock Oceans every boat has it's market and reason for existance, and Ocean does an excellent job of giving the guy who doesn't plan to go out in rough weather a roomy, good looking, efficient boat at an affordable price. In my opinion, When it comes to Exterior Finish, Ride, Mechanicals, Layup, Running Gear, Motor Mounts and Wheels Hatteras is the best with Viking very very close behind. But when it comes to Interior layout, interior finish work and design Viking is 1st with Hatteras Very Very close behind. Viking is also with out a doubt the best when it comes to Marketing and Choice! Viking Hands Down wins in choice with approx. 28 models ranging from 42 to 92 feet, Hatteras has 7 with talk of these two New future Models bringing the Grand Total 9. That being said I'm a Hatteras Guy and if I was looking for a Conv. in the 60Ft. range I would buy a Hatteras, but if I wanted any other size 42 to 55 or 65 to 95 I would only be looking at a Viking. I'm hoping this 70GT is a hot boat because to me for the travelling fisherman/cruiser 70Ft is a great size. 4 to 5 roomy staterooms, Pantry, and tons of storage and freezer space with out getting to big to hit smaller marinas and Islands in the Keys and Bahamas. I'm really curious to find out about it.

 

[branwyn]

If you look at our boats and contemporary Bertrams and Vikings, they look different- you knew at a glance what they were and who made them. Same thing with modern Hinckleys and some other brands. A Hatteras Yacht needs to look like itself only and not like other companies' products, otherwise people are going to buy on price and features only and not on a proud brand identity.

I totally agree with Jim. There are a number of 70/80 era Hatteras in our marina and they stand out. We've all become part of our own club so to speak... minus the secret handshake. A new ~70' model showed up on our dock a few weeks ago and it looks like all the other newer non-Hatteras boats in the marina, doesn't have unique lines, and IMHO looks like a "plastic toy" at least from the outside.

While boat builders primary market is new boat purchasers, they need to keep in mind the secondary market too. The boats rolling off the assembly line now are the boats most of us will be able to afford in 10+ years as they depreciate. A few friends of mine who are lucky enough to be able to trade-up every 5 or so years keep the secondary market in mind. They want to maximize the resale value of their current boat so the upgrade isn't as costly.

I also wonder how the new Hatteras designs fair in heavy seas? While I never intend to go out in heavy weather I've certainly found myself in 8+ foot seas a few times. Short of a few broken wine glasses and my dog hiding under my desk we always fair very well.

Cheers,
Ryan

 

[krush]

Just an idea: there is only a market for boats $300k and less and $3mil and more.

 

[Bill Herrin]

I never was an expert in yacht design and sales. It's even worse that having lived out of the country for most of the last 20 years I haven't even owned a real boat, but I am looking now! So my opinion is worth it's weight in paper but opinions are just like an a$$hole, everyone has one....

Seems to me innovation is not copying the style of other boats that are selling, that isn't what Hatteras did when they were on top. My memory of things back then (when I was in the boat industry) was they produced a production boat with technology, design, quality and finish that could only be otherwise obtained in a custom built vessel for many times the price. That's innovation.

Again, not expecting many to agree with me here but I see that possibility at this time building high performance, high economy vessels with 4 staterooms for about 750k.... that would mean a new design team, probably a catamaran hull system and cutting edge machinery and engineering. There are boats like this available but they run 3 to 7 mil and don't sell all that well at that price point, but that was true of 58 MY's selling for 5 times the cost of a Hatteras in the day too. There may be other ways to get superior performance and economy in a medium sized motoryacht and that would be a viable alternative IF it truly is innovative and can benefit from production over custom built (which really is the skill that Hatteras has to offer) but with ever rising fuel costs and a shrinking middle class I think efficiency and value are what's going to sell boats in the future and where innovation is called for.

Looks to me that so far Hatteras is looking to copy what is selling in production boats today and somehow claim to be innovating.... I doubt that'll work.

Again, this is an amaturer opinion from someone without the resources to buy Hatteras and try it out... so worth it's weight in the email it is sent as but it seems a shame to me that Hatteras may end up fading away from lack of leadership and creative innovation....

 

[jim rosenthal]

I think Krush is on to something here. Virtually all the boats we look at, anyway, sell for less than $300K. And then there's a big gap with the new ones starting at two or three million..... it's a weird market these days.

 

[capttonyf]

I think Krush is on to something here. Virtually all the boats we look at, anyway, sell for less than $300K. And then there's a big gap with the new ones starting at two or three million..... it's a weird market these days.

I have to agree, that market from $350,000 to $1.5 to $2 is shot, especially that small business owner who used to buy the 10 year old 50 to 65FT Conv. priced between $500,000 to $1 million. The small business owners in this country are taking the biggest hit financially with all the new regulations, and Obamacare on top of an already slow economy. Then even if they can still afford the boat they just don't want to justify $4.00 a Gallon fuel to take the family on a fishing trip. The "Big Fish" buying New 70 to 90ft at $5 to $10 million dollar boats seem to be untouchable and money/cash flow just never seems to be an issue though. Even the sale of New smaller CC boats Like Boston Whaler, Contender, Intrepid, Jupiter etc. have taken a hit as far as sales to the 35 year old family man with a good job looking for a safe little boat to take his wife and kids out on the weekend. Those buyers are thin as well, and most of these High End CC boats are no longer going to the normal family but AGAIN to the "Big Fish" as a tender and screw off boat to use along with there $10 million yachts. Thank Goodness They're still buying though, gives the rest of us our new boats 10 or so years from now...

 

[season]

My one cent.
For those of you that have read my posts, you know that I have not had the privilege of owning a Hatteras yet. I am now in the early stages of narrowing down the model that will suit my use and budget. My boating history involves mostly 20 to 30 foot fishing boats none of which had diesels. I will be taking seminars and classes and then working to get hands on experience before I take the plunge. Thanks to all of you I know it is not the purchase cost but the maintaining of the boat that will be the bigger factor that drives my choice. My work in the past offered me the opportunity to interact with the Hatteras factory and I have taken the factory tour on several occasions. I agree with most of what has been expressed in this thread. All said, I have not earned the right to express an opinion with same authority that you guys, who run these great boats but I have had a wish list for Hatteras for sometime and this thread is probably my best chance to voice it. If I could wave the magic wand for a new Hatteras Yachts here are my thoughts.
There is a reason the LRC’s are holding their value better; they are bullet proof, use the least fuel, extremely comfortable and have great cruising range. Plus the 48, 58, and 65 have cockpits that can be fished when needed. I don’t think we will see buck-fifty a gallon fuel again so whatever Hatteras does it needs to take fuel economy into consideration.
Here goes:
LRC’s – A 47, 57 and 67 foot fleet. All with the following design features:
1. Available series hybrid diesel electric propulsion systems (possibly Siemens marine series). Utilizing one modern fuel efficient diesel providing the storage/bank power for twin electric drive motors. One engine/twin screw. Significant fuel savings and the ability to run from one RPM to WOT. Tied in with a bow thruster and joystick. Second generator for conventional usage that can be brought on line for the electric motors if needed.
2. Bilge keels – greater stabilization, protection for the running gear and the ability to beach the vessel to inspect and clean the hull at low tides.
3. Seakeeper gyro stabilizer
4. Raised pilot house with Portuguese bridge
Visualize Cape Horn meets Fleming

MOTOR YACHTS – 47, 57, and 67 foot fleet. I agree with the majority of you on this forum that Hatteras has been mistakenly chasing the euro design market and has lost the opportunity to be a prime American builder of classic/modern designed yachts. The euro boats look like floating running shoes to me.
1. Hybrid diesel electric drive
2. Seakeeper gyro stabilizers
3. Cockpit extension of 5 to 7 feet available as an option to improve boarding and docking and creating a fishing capability
4. Raised pilot house and flushdeck versions
This series needs to be a 2014 version of what made Hatteras the envy of the marina; classic, salty but updated with just enough modern design touches to make sure that everyone knows it’s a Hatt.

CONVERTIBLES – 47, 57, AND 67 foot fleet initially. This segment of the market seems to have the most varying design requirements that affect the length of the boat.
1. Hybrid diesel propulsion can go fast as the Navy can attest to. Creating a quick and fuel efficient offshore fishing platform with comfort and security seems to me to be a win-win.
2. Both open and closed flybridge models available. Does anyone currently make a sub 50 foot enclosed bridge convertible? Could be quite the seller.
3. Seakeeper stabilization
4. Day head accessible via a cockpit and saloon entry

Sorry for the long post from a relative newbie but I am passionate about boating and really expect to have a Hatteras in my future.
Thanks for hearing me out and as always I am all ears to what the veterans have to say.

 

[GJH]

I don't think this is the case at all. Lot's of newer Marlows, Flemings, Grand Banks, Offshores, Ocean Alexanders, Nordhavns, Krogens etc etc getting sold at the mid price points, we see them coming through our marina and while out cruising all the time. All made in Asia, all with pretty "classic" lines. On the sport fish side, Viking sure seems to be winning the production boat game vs. Hatteras and Bertram. What was telling to me that two guys upgraded to larger new Vikings from one smaller Viking and one custom boat in our marina, which is 30 miles from the Hatteras plant. There is one newer Hatt and a couple of older ones in battlewagon "murderer's row" mostly made up of Vikings and custom Carolina makers like Jarrett Bay and Spencer.

 

[Pascal]

Right now I m looking at newish 56 or 57 MY, the new one, smallest of the line. They re right in front of us here at Staniel cay and I ve got a great view from our skylounge... I really understand why you don't see more of these on the water. I'm sure the quality is great, the ER spectacular and the stainless reallyp stainless.

But... Ridiculously small aft deck and swim platform... Narrow side decks, small flybridge. All smaller than on the ole 53 despite more beam. ER access by lifting the stairs to the FB?? So if you go down below to do something, nobody cane come up or down... Brilliant.

As much as I am not a fan of big in hull windows, at least put some portholes! The forward cabins don't have any portholes, I wonder if they even have overhead escape hatch, th foredeck is so small they may have to put them under the tiny bitty sun pad.

And no teak on a boat which is supposedly higher up on the food chain. Sorry hatteras but nowadays all MYs that size have teak decks...

Honestly this morning, I was shocked to see hatteras badges on that thing. We came in at 3am so it was pretty dark and I really thought we had docked behind a Carver... Stubby looking thing With no foredeck. Yuck.

 

[jim rosenthal]

I suppose that if you figure that sales of big boats are a zero-sum business- that is, in order to sell a big boat you have to take a sale away from another manufacturer- Hatteras is going to have to carve their niche in the market by taking sales away from other brands. In order to do that, they will need a product or products that are at least as good as all the others, a better warranty policy, and better marketing.

The fact that these markets were formerly owned by Hatteras doesn't mean much to the buyers of new boats. It means a lot to us, since most or all of us aren't in the market for new boats, but to a prospective buyer of a new boat for two million or more, it means nothing.

I think the new owners have less of a problem with Cabo, who seem to have an established position in the market. I think the real problem is making Hatteras back into an easily identifiable brand which can lead the market in innovation, service and quality.

 

[spindrift]

Gents:

Interesting that all of you hold Viking out as the ideal type, main competitor. However, I think in small to mid market there has been one American Company that seems to have created a very unique niche for itself..that company being Sabre. I was aboard the new 48 that a friend of mine purchase truly a lovely boat well equipped for just under a million. Sounds like a lot of dough, and it is, but Sabre seems to be thriving and they are making boats up in Maine which has higher energy and labor costs than North Carolina. Hatteras should not necessarily copy the Sabre prodcut line. Perhaps the same approach could be done with both SF and MY or LRCs.

I think what accounts for Sabre's success is that it is not owned by a big corporation and has an entrepreneurial CEO who has developed a winning strategy. I think Hatteras' real problem was a weak ineffective strategy and that it was owned and run by a company more interested in selling power trains and looked at boats as just a depository for its engines.

If the new PE firm puts the right management team, develops a good strategy, and supports the Company's development it will make money. One positive note is that changes in how tooling is developed has brought the cost down dramatically... this is confirmed by my friends up a major custom yard in Maine who are thriving building one offs.

The real issue that will be an albatross around Hatteras' neck is that PE firms typically want to exit from their investment in 3 years. In my judgement Hatteras is so screwed up that this is not enough time. My guess is (and I hope that I am wrong) the Company will be on the block to be flipped to in 36 to 42 months most likely at a small loss for the PE firm. Maybe then a good owner in the mold of Willis Slane will surface.

Sorry to be so blunt, but I have been through this a few times and am considered quite good at it. Turning Hatteras around is a daunting task for the best entrepreneur.. who had better have very deep pockets and be a long-term investor.

Spin

 

[jim rosenthal]

Well, we all hope so. None of us want to see the demise of Hatteras Yachts. Nothing lasts forever but I would like to live to a ripe old age and have Hatteras Yachts outlast me as well.

 

[hatteras 1985]

I don't have any inside information, but I suspect that during the transition to new owners not much is going to be said to the boating public and the boatbuilding profession. I think that after the transfer of ownership is accomplished, you'll hear a lot more.

As to how many models they have versus Viking, it's more about how many Hatteras can sell. If I were in their shoes I'd concentrate on a few choice models, well-thought-out, and work on re-establishing the look of Hatteras Yachts so that everyone will know one on sight. There isn't enough right now that separates them from their competition; there needs to be. If you look at our boats and contemporary Bertrams and Vikings, they look different- you knew at a glance what they were and who made them. Same thing with modern Hinckleys and some other brands. A Hatteras Yacht needs to look like itself only and not like other companies' products, otherwise people are going to buy on price and features only and not on a proud brand identity.

Honestly this morning, I was shocked to see hatteras badges on that thing. We came in at 3am so it was pretty dark and I really thought we had docked behind a Carver... Stubby looking thing With no foredeck. Yuck.

For the last 10 or so years, Hatteras seems hell bent on imitating that ugly Carver look. The "bubble bow", rounded bubbly gunnels, with that useless Euro layout that sacrifices living and deck space for style.

What if Hatteras started designing rugged, long range SFs and MYs with efficient diesels? No frills, trawler-esque 2,000 NM sportfishing boats? A solid hull that a family could cruise from South Florida to Cancun and back on one tank of fuel? Or in the future - Miami-Havana-Miami?

Hemingway's Pilar cruised at 10-12 knots very efficiently. The question: Is there a market for ultra efficient, long range capable sportfish boats?

 

[season]

I know there may be some philosophical aversion to putting money into the Castro brothers pockets but last time I checked diesel was about $1.30 a gallon in Cuba. I believe they get their petroleum from Venezuela, like we do. Just a thought. The guys with the big tanks could make it worth their while and catch nice meal and a sunset.

 

[Boatsb]

And get a few years room and board too.

Not a good plan for a U.S. citizen.

 

[season]

And get a few years room and board too.

Not a good plan for a U.S. citizen.

Boatsb,
I am surprised that you say that. It seems that many of the boating publications over the last year or so have been doing articles on cruising in Cuba and there is if I am not mistaken a Caribbean "circle route" that incorporates stops in Cuba. It seems if you do the homework, mind your manners and stay within their cruising areas geographically things seem to be opening up down there. I have often wondered why some of the mega yachts don't go down there for fill ups. Do they have a limit on how much fuel you can take on in one visit? Or does the US restrict it?

 

[hatteras 1985]

And get a few years room and board too.

Not a good plan for a U.S. citizen.

I was speaking more about Cuba's potential as a long range cruising destination, rather than its current "forbidden" status to Americans. Either way your assessment of the consequences for American boaters who go to Cuba is out of touch with reality. Even if boaters are scared to death about the consequences of cruising to Cuba, there are a host of travel visas and permits boaters can apply for to ensure there will be no trouble with US authorities. The authorities are not looking for trouble.

Even if you get stopped by the US Coast Guard, an event that will probably never happen as long as you don't cross at night in a go fast boat going 50 knots, or if you don't act suspiciously (ie anchoring for the night at Cay Sal, etc.), you get a letter from the Department of Treasury OFAC which is a toothless threat that is never acted upon, and the only time I got one of these was when I flew from Havana into Nassau 12 years ago.

There are about 20,000 Americans who have received these letters since the early 1990s and to my knowledge none of these cases have ever been prosecuted. Of the 15 or so times I have been to Cuba by boat, we called the US Coast Guard ahead of time and let them know where we are going, and when they can expect our vessel to return. There is usually a nice guy on the phone to take down our information and wish us farewell.

The only reason we haven't returned to Cuba by boat since about 2005 (other than a horrible economy) is because the marina facilities in Cuba have deteriorated so badly, not because of any US policy threats. Diesel shortages are more common, the concrete docks are falling apart, and I started to notice a criminal element, or at least a corrupt cop element, at Marina Hemingway the last couple times I visited by boat. There are also lots of new government rules to prevent Cubans from setting foot on foreign boats at the marina.

Cuba's destiny as a nexus for boaters and fishermen in the South Florida/Caribbean Basin is guaranteed. The only question is when politicians on both sides of the 'Stream will realize there is no point to this continued stalemate.

Boatsb,
I am surprised that you say that. It seems that many of the boating publications over the last year or so have been doing articles on cruising in Cuba and there is if I am not mistaken a Caribbean "circle route" that incorporates stops in Cuba. It seems if you do the homework, mind your manners and stay within their cruising areas geographically things seem to be opening up down there. I have often wondered why some of the mega yachts don't go down there for fill ups. Do they have a limit on how much fuel you can take on in one visit? Or does the US restrict it?

Unless you are a rag boater or a long range cruiser, there are many problems with incorporating any stops along the south coast of Cuba at this time. Marinas are sparse and the few that exist have little or no diesel fuel available. Remember that Cuba is 700 miles long and has 3,570 miles of coastline.


.

 

[Boatsb]

Feel free to take that chance. I do not think it worth what could be lost. A boat, a job or security clearance. I have been asked to work at gitmo a while back. Dod is not unclear on the rules. I think ill take their instructions over a ragboaters article just to be safe.