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Series one 36 performance question

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mike36c
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Mike36c

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
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731
Hatteras Model
36' CONVERTIBLE-Series I (1969 -1977)
I've been chasing my tail trying to "unload" my engines. I've taken two inches pitch out of the blades and my last effort was a 1" reduction in blade diameter along with another 1/2" of pitch (done by a propscan shop). I can't seem to get the gain in RPMs or EGT's down, I have lost 4kts of cruise and economy. I'm starting to think I may need a new set of wheels. I know I'm about 1000lbs heavier than most 36's (silestone counters, flake icemachine, extra freezer, plus all the Admirals stuff). That has to slow me down some, maybe a knot is my guess. Would all of you series one 36 drivers out there please post your HP, gear ratio, props, and performance?

I'm running 330b's,1.5:1, 21X19.5 4 blade wheels, cruising 23kts @ 2600 and 26 @2850rpms (WOT).

Thanks
 
Mike, I am going to assume that you can get to high idle speed with the engines out of gear. Is that true?

First I would verify that the throttle cables and linkages are intact and adjusted correctly, and that the racks are opening all the way when the throttle levers are at maximum. Also, you would want to make sure that there is no restriction in the fuel supply to either engine. All these things will keep the engines from reaching their rated revs under load.

Next, I would check your engine revs with a phototach, if you have one available. This makes sure your tachometers are not lying to you, although they are probably okay.

If you think the problem is excess weight (and a small boat like the Series I 36C is weight sensitive), then you might try taking moveable weight out of the boat (fresh water, furniture, etc etc) and seatrialing it again. If lightening ship restores your performance, you may have the answer.

You don't mention whether the boat previously performed as it should have and then lost performance, or whether it was never right to begin with. That is significant, potentially because if the performance was never there, there may be something fundamentally wrong that will prevent you from reaching your goal no matter what you do with the props. One of our forum members, for example, found out that he had been sold two different ratio ZF gears by J&T, so the boat NEVER would have performed properly until that was remedied. (To their credit, after some phone calls to Mr Johnson, they stepped up and replaced the gear with the wrong ratio with the proper one.)

The absolute guru of Cummins diesel performance is Tony Athens at Seaboard Marine in Oxnard, CA. He is also the moderator on the boatdiesel.com forum. You should join that, if you have not already, and post a thread asking about this. He will likely have plenty to say about this. Tom Slane has also repowered four or five of these boats with 330Bs, some with 1.5 ZF gears, and he will know quite a bit on this as well. Between these two guys, you should be able to find your answers.

I think the bottom line here is this: you are on the right track seeking to get proper EGT and boost figures, coupled with getting the engines to turn up to rated RPMs at WOT, or even a little higher. If she can't do that, and the throttles etc are opening up all the way and the fuel path is not restricted, and you don't have excessive back pressure choking the turbos- all those kinds of things that hurt performance- then the engines ARE over propped. I am surprised, though, because with 1.5 ZF gears and 330B engines, you should be able to swing larger wheels than that. Are the wheels actually what your prop shop says they are? You would not be the first boater to find that the props were mislabeled. By the factory, which has happened to me.

My boat has 350hp 3116s, which are not identical to your engines as they weigh about 300lbs each more than the Cummins Bs. I have 1.5 ZFs, and run 21.5x22 Michigan DQs. Rated WOT on these engines is 2850 under load, which they will reach. At those revs, she is doing about 28kts. Cruise is 25 kts, at about 2500 revs. I should mention that Blue Note is probably lighter than your boat, leaving aside the question of engine weight- I do not have the extras that you do, and I typically run with only 30gals water or less and prohibit fat people from boarding. I have gone to a fair amount of trouble to get weight out of the boat; as you know, things creep aboard and the weight creeps up.

My apologies for the lengthy post. I hope this is helpful.
 
Cummins rates the 330B at 2800 RPMs (only 315 BHP, BTW) per your data, you're turning 2850 @WOT, so this appears correct. 1000 lbs should only make a small difference in speed. I'm going to assume you've checked the obvious i.e. the hull is clean, the tabs work, no extras hanging out in the breeze like transducers, rudders toed correctly.

If I understand your post correctly it appears that the boat was working when you got it. So unless you changed something I wouldn't suspect the props. Maybe you could clarify this for us. Also, did this happen suddenly, or has it been gradually deteriorating?

I'd share the specs from my boat, but I don't think they're relevant to your situation, my 3208's only make 260 HP so it's comparing fat, low-power apples to light Hi-Perf. oranges.
 
"prohibit fat people" you big old non PC person. :p :p :p :
 
Didnt you repower from gas or am i thinking of someone else?
 
Mike, Did I ever give you a coppy of your Sea Trial report? I got it from Cummins when I started my repower. I'll bring it with me this weekend if you would like it. That report stated 3000 RPM and 875EGT. As you know, I'm running ZF 1.75:1 with 22"x24" 4 blade. It doesn't seem to matter light or heavy, 25kt @ 2600rpm close to 30kt WOT (2900RPM)
 
Thanks for the input guys, here's the deal:
When I repowered (from 555VT's to 330b's) we decided a 22X22 4 blade was the right prop. On the first splash sea trail she hit 30kts WOT and pretty much matched RPM for kts in cruise ex. 2400=24kts but that day it was a cool 60 degrees and the sea water 65. By summer everything warmed up and more crap accumulated in the cabin. On our first Island trip she labored to get on plane. I decided to knock 2" of pitch out of the blades as per Tony Athens' advice. All seemed well until I installed pyros and digital tachs, now I had lots of info :mad:

port= 2850@900egt
starboard= 2825@950

Not happy with that I decided to take the wheels to propscan to see what I really had. They weren't that far out of whack so I asked them for a 100rpm increase on both sides. They took out 1" of pitch and tweaked them. I put them on and gained only about 25rpms and the EGT's remained the same. I returned to the shop (nice folks) and told them the story, they suggested a 1" reduction in diameter which would allow the boat to plane faster and give me the rpms I was looking for. The wheels are now 21X19.5, here was the results.

Port= 2875@900egt
Starboard= 2850@950

Now my cruise went down to 22.5kts @ 2600rpms EGT's still 900 and 950.
I'm starting to think that the wheels are just not efficient. Maybe a smaller diameter higher pitch wheel would be better, or maybe 3 blades would work better. It's cost prohibitive to buy wheels betting they will work so I was hoping forum members might have some insight. Contacting Tom Slane is a good idea, I'll try him next week. Any more ideas? Oh, the bottom was done 3 months ago and is clean and John I would love a copy of the seatrail, I call next week and we'll get your pulpit going. And Jim, I have slane vents and fuel vacuum gauges, all seems well there.
 
Last edited:
What brand props are they? From the EGT figures you have enough blade area and loading- maybe they have a larger disc/area ratio than Michigans, which is what I have. Sometimes the pitch and diameter don't tell the whole story.

I'm stumped, I admit. I wish I knew how to help you out.
 
BTW, if you have Tom's vents you have more than enough fresh air coming in. I can't believe that ambient temp and water temp would make that much difference. It must be the weight in the boat. Have you run the boat with all the nonessentials left on the dock, to see what it does? In terms of the cost of things to try and figure out what is going on, you can't do it a whole lot cheaper than that....
 
Mike:

I'll be at the Stuart Corinthian Yacht Club some time today and tomorrow.
I'll have the sea trial with me.

I also have a hand held tach if you want to check the rpm's like
someone suggested.

I got the pulpit started - top part scribed and cut. I just need some advice
on what's the next step.

John -- Kathy L
 
Mike,

On a side note, I'd like to know more about your icemachine. Where is it located, whats your water source, appx. install cost, etc.

Also, I'm powered with 370B's & 1.5/1 ZF gears with 4 blade 21x22 wheels and I cruise at 26 knots @ 2600 & get 28 knots at 2800. It doesn't really seem to matter if I'm loaded or not.


Allen
 
Fat Boy said:
Mike,

Also, I'm powered with 370B's & 1.5/1 ZF gears with 4 blade 21x22 wheels and I cruise at 26 knots @ 2600 & get 28 knots at 2800. It doesn't really seem to matter if I'm loaded or not.


Allen
Thanks for the reply, I'm going to try a different set of wheels after the summer and post the results. As for the ice machine the size is a 16" cube mounted in front of the stb engine and fed by the 70gal onboard tank. It makes about 500lbs in 24hrs, a nice touch when cruising the Bahamas.
 
An update: I had my boat hauled to change out the props, I use a smaller set of 3 blades when I tow my 20' skiff to the Bahamas. As the boat was raised in the travelift I was shocked at what I saw. Green slime and grass covering the bottom and sides, that partially explains my loss of performance. The reason I was shocked is that the bottom job was only three months old! After an hour long pressure cleaning I examined the paint. It was very rough, about the texture of 40 grit sandpaper and NOT slick like an ablative should be. I'm not in the habit of bashing products but I feel like must pass along the info to hopefully save someone else a few bucks (this bottom job cost me just under $2200). The brand is Seahawk and Monterey is the line. Maybe their other lines are fine, I can't comment. They claim to have a warranty which the yard is persuing at this time but no word yet. I will post the results.
 
Mike, how did this work out for you? I have the same set up on my 36c, but with 3 blade Michigan Nibrils 22x23. I have also lost a knot or so, but still cruise 24 @ 2500 turns. I'm finatical about keeping props and shafts clean. Bottom looks good (blue water ablative paint- six months old), but Im wondering if it might not be as slick as fresh paint. Also have lost 50 turns WOT which my cummins guy says is due to the warm (87 degree) water degrading aftercooling. Any lessons learned greatly appreciated.
Regards, Bob K
 
Mike, how did this work out for you? I have the same set up on my 36c, but with 3 blade Michigan Nibrils 22x23. I have also lost a knot or so, but still cruise 24 @ 2500 turns. I'm finatical about keeping props and shafts clean. Bottom looks good (blue water ablative paint- six months old), but Im wondering if it might not be as slick as fresh paint. Also have lost 50 turns WOT which my cummins guy says is due to the warm (87 degree) water degrading aftercooling. Any lessons learned greatly appreciated.
Regards, Bob K
 
Something has gone caflouey with the engines, probably minor like rack settings. This much performance loss is not props.

MHO

Ted
 
How many hours do you have on your engines? Has your fuel burn gone up? Any white smoke at idle? I was just put new injectors in my Stb engine, because i could not get the wot rpms, plus I think the oil companies are messing withthe centane levels of the fuel. Just a few more things to throw out at ya.
330B's, 1.5:1 Twin disc, 22x23 austral 3 blades nibral.
JW
 
Mike: It does not sound like your problem is with the props. You should be able to swing the 22" wheesl and make your numbers work. I would suggest checking instrumentation again. 1000 lbs is not an insignificant amount of weight but the price should only be a knot or maybe 1.5 knots. A crudy bottom will also slow you down. I dropped my shaft angle three degrees when I repowered with the 300s and have 24x28 3 blades so my numbers will not correlate. I cruise at 23 Kt (2500 RPMs) and WOT is 26.5 (2850). Hope you solve your problem and I echo Jim's advise, ask Tony Athens at Boatdiesel. Bob
 
This has been a BAD season for fouling up here in Chesapeake Bay, I don't know about elsewhere. I am very interested to see what we find when I haul out in mid-September. I have always had good luck with Micron Extra but I am bracing for finding the metal parts totally encrusted with barnacles. Even though I have run the boat every week for a few hours. We'll see.

I think part of the performance loss is the bottom fouling, but not all. It sounds like a FI adjustment or fuel supply issue, I think.
 
One other thing , have you ever cleaned the aftercoolers? Dirty aftercooler = higher EGT and poor performance. Just brace yourself for the cost of the new gaskets, Paramount Rubber and Packing in Baltimore Md, can get you a exact replacement for $1.89 each VS the $48.00each from Cummins, and the Black ones for the 450c's will not work, niether will a whole bunch of little O-rings.
JW
 

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