Robust Inverter Set Up

[Freestyle]

I am trying to get input on desiging an inverter system for my 67 CPMY. It has 7 TV's, 6 ac's, 3 freezers, dishwasher and washer dryer. No inverter will power all of this but I would like to build the most robust inverter system possible. I searched the prior posts and think this one sort of describes the starting point:

"I have (2) of the Xantrex sw 4024 with (8) 8D AGM's, in this configuration they produce 8KW with 16 KW peak. It works out that I only have to run the gen set about 4 hrs / 24h to keep everything in the < 50 % discharged zone. The best thing to do is figure out what you want to run and for how long before you want to start the genset to determine what inverter to use . I don't run a/c on mine , just refer,freezer,icemakers,water pump,and electronics. It is really nice to not have to run gensets all the time on the hook. You can also set up to automatically turn on/off the genset at user specified batt'y charge levels and times, although I've yet to use it. Xantrex appears to have the best product and also has good support both thru the website and 800 #. Mine are set up for 220V by being "stacked" in series, this is something you also need to consider in determining which inverter(s) to use. It's cool too that you can seamlessly transfer from shorepower/gen power/inverter power without flipping any switches and the inverter maintains 60 cycles all along. Great for high tech equipment like computers , no surges or power interruption".

Does setting up the system for 220v being stacked enable it to run washer dryer, ac's etc. for a short period of time?

Any thoughts on making an even more powerful inverter system?

Thanks for any input

Bruce

Freestyle
67 CPMY
Tampa

 

[Pascal]

You d have to run the exact numbers using your actual appliances but any heating device uses a lot more power than you can practically supply from batteries. A washer? Yes as it doesn't use that much power but if you try to run a dryer, you re going to drain those batteries very quickly

My view is that if a device uses almost as much juice as it take to recharge, it s not worth running on inverter. For example if your dryer or AIr con or oven uses 100 amps out of the batteries and you are charging the bank at 120 amp, there are no benefits to running it off the inverter. Again, you ll have to run the numbers based on your appliances and charger

My preferred set up is to have enough battery capacity for the inverter to run the boat 18 to 20 hours. This way, you only run the genny in the evening when cooking, running the water maker, water heater etc...

You will have to add you appliances power requirements to see what you need taking into account real world usage. For instance, you re not going to have all 7 TVs on for hours and hours...

Based on my experience with the systems I have used, 8 8Ds should be fine if only used for inverter but it s hard to be sure without doing the math. The biggest draw will be your fridges and freezers and that can vary a lot

Personally i don't think I would agree about the quality of Xantrex inverters or their service.

 

[Boatsb]

I am trying to get input on desiging an inverter system for my 67 CPMY. It has 7 TV's, 6 ac's, 3 freezers, dishwasher and washer dryer. No inverter will power all of this but I would like to build the most robust inverter system possible. I searched the prior posts and think this one sort of describes the starting point:

"I have (2) of the Xantrex sw 4024 with (8) 8D AGM's, in this configuration they produce 8KW with 16 KW peak. It works out that I only have to run the gen set about 4 hrs / 24h to keep everything in the < 50 % discharged zone. The best thing to do is figure out what you want to run and for how long before you want to start the genset to determine what inverter to use . I don't run a/c on mine , just refer,freezer,icemakers,water pump,and electronics. It is really nice to not have to run gensets all the time on the hook. You can also set up to automatically turn on/off the genset at user specified batt'y charge levels and times, although I've yet to use it. Xantrex appears to have the best product and also has good support both thru the website and 800 #. Mine are set up for 220V by being "stacked" in series, this is something you also need to consider in determining which inverter(s) to use. It's cool too that you can seamlessly transfer from shorepower/gen power/inverter power without flipping any switches and the inverter maintains 60 cycles all along. Great for high tech equipment like computers , no surges or power interruption".

Does setting up the system for 220v being stacked enable it to run washer dryer, ac's etc. for a short period of time?

Any thoughts on making an even more powerful inverter system?

Thanks for any input

Bruce

Freestyle
67 CPMY
Tampa

Inverters get stacked and phased. It is possible to stack 2 inverters to get more power or phase them to get higher voltage. Its a pretty intricate system if you want it to be transparent to you for operation.

If you are looking for an integrated solution that almost runs itself you have a lot more questions to answer.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

I have seen Outback inverters stacked. They have a nice setup that makes it pretty easy. If you have Xantrex, you should call them and see what you need to do to meet your needs.

 

[krush]

Ok, for the rest of us. Please define and briefly explain stacking and phasing--I'm curious now!

 

[Boatsb]

Stacking is taking 2 inverters and using them together like in a parallel battery where you get 2x the amperage.

Phasing is where you offset the AC phasin to create 3 phase or 2 x 180 degree phased 120 /240 volt systems.

You can stack , phase or stack and phase.

2 x 3000 watt 110 volt inverters stacked is 6000 watts 110 volts

2 x 3000 watt 110 volt inverters phased is 6000 watts 220 volts or and combination of 110 and 220.

4 x 3000 watt 110 volt inverters stacked x 2 and phased is 12000 watts 110/220.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Krush,
Here is the Outback manual. Go to page 23.

http://www.outbackpower.com/pdf/manuals/fx_vfx_export.pdf

 

[q240z]

I would also recommend against Xantrex products, based on personal experience. Outback or Magnum Energy would get my vote, or maybe Victron if you favor Euro stuff.

I also agree with the comment against running big power consumers, like AC or dryers, on inverters.

 

[Boatsb]

Dryers make no sense nor does AC for the whole boat but I have designed systems to run limited AC for a quiet night in the master cabin when needed. Done right its transparent to the operator. Most systems I hear about here are not automated or connected to the systems in an intelligent manner.

 

[MikeP]

I agree with Pascal's point re evaluating inverter/battery load vs charge time. Obviously, you could run the entire boat and all loads using inverters as per the instructions Sky posted for the Outbacks. But having the batteries to support that for more than an hour or two (if that) would probably require a small barge full of them towed behind the boat and a generator running 12 hours/day to charge them!

 

[Boatsb]

so 4 8d AGM batteries running an AC in the cabins overnight and needing 2 1/2 hours to charge the batteries would not work mike? Better inverters have more charging. Stacked and phased the charging can be increased the 220 systems I install have 2 x 150 amp chargers in it. do the math.

 

[MikeP]

I was making a somewhat tongue-in-cheek (run the entire boat's loads) comment supporting Pascal's suggestion that the inverter/batt/charger should be evaluated to determine if using an inverter to do heavier loads is really practical. I admit I didn't do any math re running the entire boat's loads with batteries/inverter. But even without the calculation, I'd bet it is not practical on a 53MY.

 

[Pascal]

Why don't you do the math for us and give us the details?

If you are going to spend say $10k on installing such a system to save $20 a night in fuel, it will take 500 night to recoup the costs... Few owners spend 50 nights on the hook so they d be looking at 10 years to recoup the costs.

And that s assuming they don't have any family or friends aboard ...

I think many of us here would like to make this work, pls give us details

 

[Boatsb]

The math is simple. You get what you pay for. A system today in a motor home or a boat is not there to save fuel. Its there to add comfort and convenience. There is no "cost savings in a fully transparent intelligent inverter installation.

1) The system is a full pass through with 20 MS change over. You never have to reset the clocks on anything.

2) The system will run all the boats loads on a as needed basis allowing use of the water heater or a smaller ac overnight.

3) The system does not require manual switching or load balancing.

4) The system will recharge in 2-4 hours

5) The system will sense and correct low voltage automatically.


From these basic rule we can fill in the boats power requirements and the lifestyle of the owner to calculate the needed power. Every boat is different and every customer has different needs.

If the system senses a need to increase its amperage over a preset amount it will fire the generator. If the batteries drop below a preset it will fire the generator. If the shore power is plugged in and available it will switch to it from the generator. If the shore power fails it will got to inverter/generator as needed.

This is what is going into new yachts and land yachts today.

Choosing the right gear and properly programming it is essential. This is not a DIY project for most at this level. Then again it is not for the faint of wallet. A system with the installation and rewiring of the vessel to be "intelligent" will be between $20K and $40K.


So if your looking to just save diesel fuel or a few generator hours forget about this level of integration. If you are looking to add comfort and value to your time aboard it may be for you.


By the way I have not ever looked at putting one in a sailboat. Those guys are so cheap they would rather sweat than run an AC unless someone else is paying the power bill.

 

[Pascal]

A properly installed single inverter and reasonable bank, as many of us have on our boat, will do everything you describe, except running the heavy loads like air con, electric cook top, oven, etc.

Like most of us here, I live in the real world where money doesnt grow on the proverbial tree whether it s my boat or somebody else's and if I am going to spend $10k on an upgrade, or recommend it to an owner, it has to be worth it. It s not about being cheap...

Most larger boats are designed to run on generator which are installed far enough from the staterooms so that they can't be heard. I really don't see much benefits in trying to run air con off inverters since the items you listed are basic features in single inverter setup like many of us already have

All We are trying to figure out is the cost vs benefit of running air cons off inverters

 

[Boatsb]

So read it again if you cant understand the way to do it is not beyond today's technology. It just may be beyond your budget.

I have more than one person running AC from inverters although not the whole vessel just a smaller master unit. I also install them to allow for the owners to be free of having to manage the loads and the bs involved with all the manual stuff. If you are not able to afford to do it right there are shortcuts or other ways to do things but to state that the simple task of wiring an inverter in on an AB switch is going to be easy and cheaper only goes to reinforce what I have been saying.

FYI hospitals, theme parks and other land based users of power have similar systems installed in critical areas to insure QOS. Forget the shortcuts and do it right for once.

 

[Pascal]

So read it again if you cant understand the way to do it is not beyond today's technology. It just may be beyond your budget.

I have more than one person running AC from inverters although not the whole vessel just a smaller master unit. I also install them to allow for the owners to be free of having to manage the loads and the bs involved with all the manual stuff. If you are not able to afford to do it right there are shortcuts or other ways to do things but to state that the simple task of wiring an inverter in on an AB switch is going to be easy and cheaper only goes to reinforce what I have been saying.

FYI hospitals, theme parks and other land based users of power have similar systems installed in critical areas to insure QOS. Forget the shortcuts and do it right for once.

I have never suggested that wiring am inverter thru a manual switch is easier or preferred, it is not. Indeed using the built in auto transfer switch is ideal and provide all the benefits you listed

But you don't need to spend $20k on such a setup. A $2k marine inverter, $500 of marine wiring and supply and 20 hours of labor will usually cover it.

It s basically owner proof... Turn off the heavier loads, discon shore or genny, and inverter comes on automatically

I fail to see the benefit of attempting to wire everything thru the inverter(s). The person running the system will still need to shut off the heavier loads before shutting down the genset or throwing the rotaries.

As to running AIr cons, yes some may find it useful to run the master AC of at night but it is not an universal one size fits all solution. Even if you don't have guests on board, comfort is important to most owners and waking up in the morning to hot galley and saloon is not very pleasant. I prefer keeping the whole boat cool overnight and not try to save a few $ worth of diesel.

 

[Boatsb]

its the difference between a Mercedes or a Chevy. The Chevy will get you there and cheaper. It will probably have a trunk full of gov cheese too but thats another story.

The Mercedes will get you there in style and comfort. You may not see the benefit but then again you are not able to but the new luxury items to begin with.


Make right vs make do. I choose right.

 

[Boatsb]

I guess I should also put in this disclosure.

I professionally sell and install electronics and power systems on a regular basis. I am paid to do so and as such work on boats other than classic Hatts. I have prepared boats for CG inspection with 100 mile tickets and installed most every type of marine electronics from RDF's to integrated multifunction displays and I have done it on boats other than mine on a regular basis.

I also have worked with fiberglass and epoxies for 30 years from designing and building boats and molds to repairs. I do not consider either of these crafts a hobby.

My boat does not have an inverter nor do I plan to put one on soon as it does not support the way I use it. Both my engines run and receive regular service and maintenance. All my electronics work and are integrated to the maximum level they support. The vessel runs at least 5 times a month and is used regularly (3-4 days a week) as an office or condo.

 

[MikeP]

"The Mercedes will get you there in style and comfort"

I don't know that I'd go with that analogy...I've worked far more on any my wife's last 3 MBs sorting out stupid little problems that are the result of designing something in the most complicated way possible than I ever have had to on any single "lesser" automobile.

Most recently - shop said 1500 bucks to repair (replace) the non-working driver side climate-control t-stat. Total cost to fix? 20 minutes to pull out the control head, 1 "spritz" worth of Deoxit to clean the connections, 15 minutes to reinstall. Don't even get me started on the silly pneumatic door closing system.