Replacing battery cables

[Pascal]

"Give me a break! They are going to decline coverage because of copper cable? Sea Ray still uses copper wire as did your beloved Maxum and Bayliner/ Meridian , Carver,Grand Banks, most Taiwan boats etc.... Not to mention the shore cord.

I agree that when replacing you should use tin, but no need to replace whats there."

Dis, you probably should reduce your caffeine intake in the morning...

I never suggested replacing what was there. I said "if replacing it, why not doing it right with tinned cable?"

In case of an electrical fire, you bet the surveyors and insurers will be looking at what's left of the wiring and will be asking question if they find remains of welding cables. They will also check on recent maintenance and upgrade so it's important to do it right.

I dont' recall off hand what is used in shore power cables, I dont open them up that often. If indeed most cords use untinned copper, then you are helping proving my point since shore power connectors are a very common source of boat fires.

 

[Trojan]

Welding cable is made to sustain continuous flexing and is resistant to most all oils. Thirty years in use and now that type cable is no good. BS, water wicking has not been a problem in thirty years and probably won't ever be. But today it is? And you think with tined and with less strands it wont wick. It's better than the tinned for battery cables. With constant flexing the tinning rubs against the other strands and rubs off and then what do you have. A burn through. So how is this better than welding cable? Welding cable, High current load, lots of flexing, multi strand. If you have that much water where your cables run, you have more trouble than cables. Cables burn off at the cable ends, very seldom in the middle. What a bunch of nit picking dreamers. You guys just love to cause problems that aren't there. Who is going to inspect it. A boat surveyor! A house inspector. I bet you guys are afraid to remove the tag from your mattress. Surely the tag cop will show up and arrest you. Shore power cables are not tinned and most shore power cable fires are at the bulk head plugs where the cable plugs in. Very little heat is ever generated in the cable itself. The heat and burning is started in the plug because of a warn out plug or receptacle.

BILL

 

[captddis]

"Give me a break! They are going to decline coverage because of copper cable? Sea Ray still uses copper wire as did your beloved Maxum and Bayliner/ Meridian , Carver,Grand Banks, most Taiwan boats etc.... Not to mention the shore cord.

I agree that when replacing you should use tin, but no need to replace whats there."

Dis, you probably should reduce your caffeine intake in the morning...

I never suggested replacing what was there. I said "if replacing it, why not doing it right with tinned cable?"

In case of an electrical fire, you bet the surveyors and insurers will be looking at what's left of the wiring and will be asking question if they find remains of welding cables. They will also check on recent maintenance and upgrade so it's important to do it right.

I dont' recall off hand what is used in shore power cables, I dont open them up that often. If indeed most cords use untinned copper, then you are helping proving my point since shore power connectors are a very common source of boat fires.

How did I prove your point?? You falsely claimed that non tinned copper wiring was a cause to deny an insurance claim. That is bulls--t. My point was that while not the best cable many boats are wired with copper wire and are not denied insurance coverage. What next, "you used a lamp from K mart so no insurance" ? Did you replace your welding/ battery cables? I doubt it.


ps you contradict yourself by saying that you did not say to replace the welding cables then say that the insurance will check for welding cables. which is it?

 

[Pascal]

i will not replace the cables on my boat because they are in good condition.

If i were to replace them, i woudl certainly use marine tinned cable, not try to save a few bucks with welding cable.

I didn't claim that using non tinned copper wiring was a cause to deny an insurance claim, i said the insurer and surveyor would be looking closely at any non marine wiring or device (like non marine chargers and inverters). Will they deny the claim? who knows... i'm sure they could argue that whoever installed the stuff was negligent... do you want to waste time arguing with them?

bottom line... why take a chance? It's one ABYC standard that's easy to comply with.

 

[J's Dream]

Guys, guys, guys...lets not argue about this. To each his own. I happen to be replacing my cables because they have gotten very stiff, and at the ends there seems to be alot of corrosion. Also, I found a spot on the negative cable where the insulation has worn through due to an area where it was chafing...I have since wrapped it with electrical tape, but nevertheless, it needs to be replaced.

Some would say to splice in a new section, but I just assume do it all once, and do it right.

Any recommendations on a crimper? I have seen the hammer/pin type...do those work well? GenuineDealz has it for $26.

Thanks...Jason

 

[Pascal]

i've used the hammer / ancor crimper, not ideal. I've done some good 4/0 crimps using a mallet with a very large flat blade screwdriver (heavy duty with the metal going thru the handle. Not easy but they were good solid crimps... the key is to hit with the screw driver aligned with the wire in the middle of the connector. This duplicate the pattern of the real crimpers

When you buy the cable locally, shops often have the proper crimping tool they can lend you... i've used that on a project (60+ crimps) and it was much easier.

 

[GaryNW]

When i bought my 1975 31'EC, the surveyor found no continuity from the gas fill to ground. The wire at the tank had corroded thru at crimp connector. For some odd reason, Hatteras used non-tinned #6 for this wire. Everywhere else was tinned cable. It was Hatt wiring because it had their nice terminals and tags. Furthermore, I dissected the cable and found heavy corrosion from wicking for several inches at each end. This particular wire is way out of the bilge. The tinned bounding wires even in the bilge are still fine. I do a visual inspection, a little wiggeling at the terminals and finally a resistance check with the Fluke. I guess It's easy enough to figure out how I vote. There are options, BTW. Silver plating or better yet, gold. I'll stay with the tin! Don't laugh too hard-even my humble 1989 Toyota supra uses gold plated terminals and o-ring sealed (sometimes double o-rings) connectors under the hood.
Gary

 

[Brian Degulis]

Welding cable is OK lots of our boats have had it for many years without problems but it's not the best choice for battery cable. The fact that it's not tinned doesn't bother me at all what bothers me is that welding cable is intended to be a cord not a cable. So the strands are very fine the insulation is very soft and on some of them there is a layer of paper between the insulation and the copper some So it's more likely to absorb moisture. All those things make it a great cord but not such a great battery cable.

When you calculate the amperage on the starting circuit and then look at what the cable size should be you will discover that battery cables are grossly undersized. The only reason it works and is allowed is because the starting circuit is momentary duty (around 30 seconds). If the cable were sized for continuous duty they would have to be much larger.

So in a perfect system you still have lots of voltage drop. So it pays to replace with the best cable available. I certainly wouldn't change it out for that reason but if I'm changing it anyway I'm getting the right stuff. BTW shore power cables don't cause fires because they aren't tinned or for any deficiency in the cable itself. It's almost always the plugs and receptacles they're just vulnerable in a marine environment and need to be inspected and changed out before they fail.

Brian

 

[GJH]

Thanks Brian for articulating the case better than I could.

Shore power cables are pretty irrelevant to the discussion; for one thing they just carry 50 amps. For another they must be very flexible.

I think I still have a crapped out piece of welding cable in the trunk of my car that I pulled out of the boat, I'll have to check and post a picture here. For those of you in love with the stuff, just go right ahead and use it and save that precious 100 bucks or so. But there is a reason it is called welding cable, not battery cable, and there is a reason they stopped using it on boats.

An alternative to crimping yourself is to cut the cables to length and then go to a battery or alternator place and have them do it. A lot of the bigger NAPA stores provide this service; bring your own tinned marine connectors; the shop should have the heat shrink though not all use the adhesive type. Doesn't cost much, maybe less than a crimper for the one job, and this is one crimp you want to make absolutely certain is done right.

 

[kwerges]

Recently replaced a number of battery cables. Went to the local Power Stride Battery store here in San Diego. They duplicated my bad cables with new, crimped the new ends, and used heat shrink on the ends to seal the joint between the end and the cable. Only charged a couple of bucks for their work. Well worth it...

 

[TedZ]

Well these discussions are very interesting, but i like a little more data.

Could someone quote the ABYC section that requires that all wire be tinned on a boat? Also, could someone tell me what the specs are on the insulation of battery cable and welding cable are, leading one to conclude that welding cable insulation is softer than battery cable insulation?

Lastly, has anyone really crimped 4/0 cable with a crimper. $26 for that crimper? The handles on the mechanical crimpers extend to 5' long. I would say the crimper is worth $26 in scrap steel! They cost in the hundreds of dollars in any event if they are going to be a proper crimp.

Hammer and screwdriver?! So we are going to use tinned cable and crimp with a hammer and screwdriver? That's better??!!

Thinner wire breaks more easily? The exact opposite is the case and wire designed to have tight bends and that which is subject to vibration is always spec'ed as more strands. Look at the wire on your gennys!

Gold plated ends for 4/0? Maybe they exist but i have never seen them. Link please?

No one mentions anti-ox. Copper and any other material requires anti-ox. Want the spec on that? It is all over the various codes. Does anyone have any? Google Penetrox to see one type.

Properly documented i respect all of these opinions. This thread just seems a little out of control.


Ted

 

[yachtsmanbill]

GEEZ... an out of control thred HERE ??? You really hit the lug with a screwdriver with that one Ted !! Having worked in numerous power plants for over 30 plus years and now in a motor shop that rebuilds 5000 hp electric motors, I am gonna share some industry tips. I know the experts here always know best, and I always respect opinions, but sometimes theres another avenue of approach... you can paint your boat with awlgrip and apply by dabbing it on with newspaper or spraying it with a $500 BINKS #69 gun. It all depends on your criteria and the finished product you want.
Ive used welding cable for years for starting and never had a problem. The stuff I use has an orange silicone jacket and sees service being run over by forklifts on top of steel grating. Thats the pudding. I always crimp, solder and shrink tube all my connections. A few drops is more than adequate; not a half a bar of 50/50 either! This is all a part of another thred...
Crimping is all doing the same thing, and the key word is TONNAGE. Copper is very malleable and needs to be tight. I only use No-Korode on the lugs that land on buss bars or similar contact points. Its also good on non soldered crimps. Lugs should be the formed type that are not going to expose the wire ends to reduce wicking... blah blah blah
If ya really need to be ANAL about all this, look up NEC codes for nuclear power generation. This is what we use... be prepared to open your A-- er I mean yer wallet WIDE OPEN, but this is the only correct tool to use for 1/0 or larger. And now for my coffee and my morning constitutional... ws
http://www.specialized.net/ecommerc...3&High-Speed-6-Ton-Hydraulic-Crimper-Y500CTHS

 

[Brian Degulis]

If you don't have a good crimping tool then your best bet is to solder. Nothing special is needed just electrical grade rosin core solder and a propane torch. Keep the flame low and keep it on the lug not the wire when you get enough heat for it to flow use enough solder to fill the lug it flows in quick and easy try to use the minimum amount of heat required. Then heat shrink it and your done. IMHO better than crimping especialy if you only have a cheapo crimper.


Brian

 

[MikeP]

FWIW, which may not be much, remember that ABYC "Standards and Recommended Practices" (A term they borrowed from the international aviation community) are RECOMMENDED; they are not required. Boat builders do not have to follow them and neither do you.

Yes, surveyors often point to ABYC in their surveys but it is still just a recommendation. That's NOT to say it isn't good stuff and should be done but you cannot get a "ticket" for your boat not meeting ABYC but you CAN get a "ticket" if it doesn't meet USCG or local State requirements.

 

[Pascal]

soldering is not recommended on boats because of vibration... i'm no expert, jsut ask any decent surveyor familiar with the ABYC standards. Heat may also be a problem in a starting circuit as the connections can get pretty hot.

i didn't mean a 1/2 pound hammer and little screw driver... i used a 5 lbs mallet and a BIG 18" screw driver with the steel going thru the handle. these crimps where much better than those made the Ancor crimp tool (the one you also bang with a hammer).

obviously though, if you have access to the proper tool, or can get a battery shop to crimp them, that's better.

and obviously dielectric grease in in the terminal and shrink tube.

 

[MikeP]

I've always used that Ancor "hammer" crimper with no problems that I'm aware of. I guess I don't understand what it is a crimper is expected to do that the ancor tool doesn't do just fine. I don't see any difference between what that tool does as opposed to the ratchet crimper I use on all of my smaller gauge wiring tasks. The connections are extremely tight. What else is a crimper supposed to do?

I bought one of those crimpers a couple of years ago when I was at a marine store, bought some batt cable and connectors and asked them to attach them, they declined, due to "liability" issues...

 

[GJH]

I didn't scan back thorough all the posts, but I don't recall anyone saying that the thin strands in welding cable are more prone to breaking. The problem is moisture and corrosion in a salt water environment. The heat and moisture and chemical resistance specs should be printed right on the side of the cable along with the wet and dry temperature ratings. Boat cable will have "BC5W2" and/or "UL 1426" I don't have a convenient cut and paste at the moment to provide all the details. I'll look around.

Use whatever cable you want to if you like, but please please do not rely solely on a solder connection, especially on a high amp application like this. That is many problems, including maybe a fatal one, waiting to happen. Please, don't.

 

[TedZ]

Much better info.

Thank you all.

Ted

 

[Brian Degulis]

I've always used that Ancor "hammer" crimper with no problems that I'm aware of. I guess I don't understand what it is a crimper is expected to do that the ancor tool doesn't do just fine. I don't see any difference between what that tool does as opposed to the ratchet crimper I use on all of my smaller gauge wiring tasks. The connections are extremely tight. What else is a crimper supposed to do?

I bought one of those crimpers a couple of years ago when I was at a marine store, bought some batt cable and connectors and asked them to attach them, they declined, due to "liability" issues...

The correct crimper has a set of dies that form the shoulder of the lug into a square. Problem is they cost around $450 so no one is going to want to buy one just to change a set of cables. The cheap crimper doesn't do a very good job on large cables. Try crimping one then put the lug in a vise and give a good pull it doesn't take much to pull it out. Try the same with a soldered conection you could tow your car with it it's never coming out. In adition it's completly sealed. I know some will argue that because of the stiffness created it may break from vibration. I've never seen that and I'm just not buying it. As far as heat melting the solder at that point all the insulation has burned off the cable and your boats probably on fire anyway.

I've been building steel boats for an awfull long time so I've seen my share of battery cable and welding cable and methods and materials for working with them. BTW we crimp on our boats with the correct crimper not because I think it's better but because it's much faster.
You can get deep in theory and dig up all sorts of stuff on anything. I like practical common sense methods that can be done by the average boat owner a lot more

Brian

 

[Trojan]

In a pinch, I use a 1/8 thick X 1 inch wide rounded off steal chisel. With a 2x4 as a back up to set the terminal. Don't get carried away with the pounding or you can split the terminal. I've also a large half moon key and crimped it in a vise. You need to indent the terminal and not flatten it out. That's the reason for the die. I then use shrink tube over top. No deoxit and no solder. The only real advantage of weld cable is its flexibility. It takes one hell of a lot wiggling and bending to brake the strands in a weld cable. A hell of a Lot more bending than the other types cable. So do whatever you like.
Just don't tell anyone what you used. Or someday you'll liable to get a surprise visit from the cable cops. It will last a long time with just using plain common sense.

BILL