Replacing battery cables

[MikeP]

I would never argue with the relative strength difference between soldered and crimped nor would I argue with the fact that the proper crimping tool you describe does a far better job than the Ancor. I guess what I would question is simply does the difference in "quality" attachment make any difference in this application? I check all my crimped connections by pulling on them with a fair bit of force, though not what could be applied with a vise and a serious pull in the case of these Batt cables. But how much tension is going to be applied to batt cables that are properly supporteD; Do you think it would matter in this application?

 

[GJH]

Brian, we agree and disagree. I have seen soldered connectors in a variety of circumstances where you pull them right out; had one to the starter on my generator when I bought it as a matter of fact. Was having cranking problems, put my hand on the connector and ouch! Hot! Then pulled the damn cable right out of it; no crimp, solder. Lucky it didn't burn up the boat. Fact is proper crimping, as you describe, forms a much better electrical and mechanical bond than soldering does. Bad soldering is every bit as bad, or worse than bad crimping. I maintain that good crimping is superior to good soldering. Again, there is a reason one is recommended over another on boats.

 

[Brian Degulis]

No I don't think that it's a big diffrence if you use the cheap crimper or weding cable instead of batt cable. If it's done with some care it's going to be safe and it's going to work.

My point is that if your going to replace cables anyway and assuming you don't have any of the specialized tools. Then for a few extra bucks buy batt cable and instead of buying an in expensive crimper or finding someone to put the ends on for you just solder them. I think you will end up with a better job with less hassle and money.

Brian

 

[Pascal]

i compared the effect of the "proper" crimping tool with the ancor or the heavy screw driver... the key is to press on the fitting and press down the metal so that the "dome" is inverted and almost splits the cable in the middle.

You want the top part of the tube to become a V, this is what give the grip to you crimp as it compresses the wire. On the other hand if you were to simply squeeze the fitting (with a hammer or a wise) you wouldn't reduce the overall volume because the sides would expand as you crush the fitting.

indeed, when your batteries are secured and the cables properly supported, it probably doesn't make a big difference, out there in the REAL world.

 

[Brian Degulis]

Brian, we agree and disagree. I have seen soldered connectors in a variety of circumstances where you pull them right out; had one to the starter on my generator when I bought it as a matter of fact. Was having cranking problems, put my hand on the connector and ouch! Hot! Then pulled the damn cable right out of it; no crimp, solder. Lucky it didn't burn up the boat. Fact is proper crimping, as you describe, forms a much better electrical and mechanical bond than soldering does. Bad soldering is every bit as bad, or worse than bad crimping. I maintain that good crimping is superior to good soldering. Again, there is a reason one is recommended over another on boats.

No way a properly soldered lug is far far superior to a crimped lug. Mechanically electrically it's much much better and much more impervious to moisture intrusion. Vibration might be an issue on small wires (although I've never seen it) but on 4/0 cable it's not. The failures you see on soldered conections are almost always caused by the wrong solder. Electrical grade rosin core is the easiest to use and does the best job. I suspect that crimping is recomended over soldering because soldering does require a little more care crimping is pretty fool proof if you have the tool.

If your interested try a little experiment. Conect two pieces of small wire maybe 12 or 14 ga together with a crimp conector. Then impose a load that's to much for the wire. You will see that the crimp conector is the first thing to heat up that's because the highest resitance is at the conector. Then do the same thing but this time solder the conector there will be no more heat at the conector than there is in the rest of the wire because there is much less resitance.

Brian

 

[fissioneng]

Last winter I replaced my on/off switches with the Guest Extra Heavy Duty 2304A switches. These are identical to the originals except for the knob. They changed it so it is easier to see how it is switched from far away.

In my boat, these switches are back mounted and have small aluminum spacers on each bolt that compensate for the curvature of the switch body. When removing them, make sure to catch these little things! (wish I knew this ahead of time!)

 

[fissioneng]

I replaced some 4/0 welding cable with marine cable last year. One thing I noticed is that the welding cable insulation is rated at 40 C, the marine cable is rated at 105 C. 40 C is only 104 F, not great for an engine room.

Also, my surveyor said soldering is a definite no-no. Vibration and heat (expansion/contraction) make them fail.

 

[MikeP]

Re vibration - I'm aware of the marine recommendations but I'm curious, how are aircraft electrical connections made? Are they all crimped? I suppose they are, I'd hate to be the guy soldering all the necessary connections on a Triple Seven or whatever.

 

[Pascal]

dont' know about modern jets... years ago, I remember the FAA put out an AD ordering the replacement of aluminum battery cables. Back in the 60s alum cables sounded like a good idea because of weight savings but with time and corrosion there were some serious failures (fire). dont know which manufacturers had used alum cable, i know Piper did on early Aztecs like the one i had. After switching to copper cable (dont' know if it was tinned...), the difference in cranking power was evident.

on modern jets, they probably use such expensive connectors that the labor is not that importnat...

 

[Brian Degulis]

So lets review

Pascal recommends the Kitchen Magician as a crimping tool

Dave has called Pascal out to the flag pole for a fist fight

Brian thinks that a proper connection should be capable of towing an automobile

Ted thinks the thread is completely out of control and has called the police


The funniest part of all is that it really isn't anything unusual just another day on the HOF

We should all go immediately to this link http://www.canadamedicineshop.com/i...duct_id/1757?gclid=CPTg_MGamZgCFQKHxwod0Ca_mw

Brian

 

[MikeP]

Good one, Brian!

 

[captddis]

So lets review

Pascal recommends the Kitchen Magician as a crimping tool

Dave has called Pascal out to the flag pole for a fist fight

Brian thinks that a proper connection should be capable of towing an automobile

Ted thinks the thread is completely out of control and has called the police


The funniest part of all is that it really isn't anything unusual just another day on the HOF

We should all go immediately to this link http://www.canadamedicineshop.com/i...duct_id/1757?gclid=CPTg_MGamZgCFQKHxwod0Ca_mw

Brian

It wasn't going to be a fist fight, it was going to be a beating with a welding cable!

 

[GJH]

Brian, I too believe you should be able to tow a truck with your connection. Back in the day I had a bunch of car and truck electronics/electrical shops in a division of mine. Every now and then the supervisor would grab a harness or cable a tech was working up, attach it to a big blown out sub woofer and whirl it around his head. If it broke, the guy had to re-do the whole job. Solderers lost that bet more than crimpers; finally we trained everyone how to crimp properly. Some guys soldered and crimped, I am not sure what good that did.

Perhaps a highly skilled guy using the right materials can consistently create a superior soldered connection, but amateurs are going to fail both your heat test (as in my starter cable) and my supervisor's 90% of the time.

 

[GaryNW]

Airliners use crimps and they use solder depending on application. I don't know how you could crimp all of those tiny wires in the typical mil-spec type connectors. Bear in mind that these connectors always have strain relief and are usually potted. As I recall, big stuff that could be crimped, was crimped. I didn't do EE, just ME and structures. BTW, I read the airbus used a lot of alum wire on the A380 because it needed to go on a serious diet. They didn't want to, mind you. They had to.
Maybe I can start a new fight. Airliners don't use panduits in the wiring. I believe the problem is that when they are tight enough to be trusted, they will cause the wires to fracture under vibration. Wires are laced with flat ribbon and you see cushion clamps on bundles. Panduits are fine for little lightweight ducts.
Gary

 

[krush]

What about soldered or welded ends? you know instead of crimps lol more over-analyzing.

 

[TedZ]

Now how did you know about that link Brian?



Very funny comments. Love it!

Ted

 

[Brian Degulis]

I just pulled it out of "MY Favorites" BTW they are much cheaper by the drum!!!

Brian

 

[Boatsb]

Soldered or crimped is not the only issue. Plenum rated cable will not release poisons when burned. I believe marine cable is plenum and welding cable is not.

If the cable were to smolder or burn I would like to survive the smoke and repair it. Just a thought.

Oh yeah. Solder has better electrical properties. Crimps have better mechanical properties. Crimping a soldered cable (or soldering a crimped cable) may be a bit over the top for some but I have crimped my cables after soldering them (keep them hot) and have never had a failure. Then again I do not use them for lifting slings either.

 

[rrrestorer]

Wouldnt you crimp first and then solder? Seams that crimping after soldering would tend to mess up solder job and be harder to do unless you keep it not just hot , but molten?

 

[MikeP]

I could understand choosing to EITHER crimp or solder based on a personal preference/experience. But doing both seems a bit OTT!