Radar/plotter

[MikeP]

I don't like the concept of integrated units at all, unless one can afford multiple entirely separate integrated units - as do passenger airplanes. In my boating career I have lost GPS or Radar on several different occasions but never both. I've told these two stories here before but this is another good opportunity.

1. When we were in the UK in '03, a friend took us on board a beautiful new 87ft sailboat that is used for charter. It has all the very highest-tech and latest integrated electronics including some really hi-zoot computer integration for engine and generator monitoring etc.

I was talking to the captain (fairly young guy - mid 30's) about the electronics. When I commented on how impressive the high tech stuff was, he snorted and said that even when it worked it was a pain going through all the menus and if the master computer failed, it all failed. He showed me a shelf with a door on it and said, This is what I really use." He opened the door and there was a stand alone Furuno radar display, a stand-alone Garmin GPS and a stand-alone depth finder.

He went on to explain that "This computer junk is here because the owner wants it here - it looks impressive to the people chartering the boat." He explained that there were constant problems and strange failures.

2. A guy in our marina related that he sailed to Boston after having all his old electronics ripped out and replaced with an integrated system - radar/GPS/depth. Approaching the harbor area, the system started rebooting or recycling on it's own and he lost everything. Fortunately, he still had his paper charts and mag compass and binoculars so he managed to get in OK. He said the lack of a depth finder was the scariest thing.

He has since un-integrated by adding a separate depth finder and a smaller stand-alone radar.

In our current setup, I wouldn't mind incorporating depth into our Garmin 3010C for a handy reference but only because there are separate datamarine depthfinders at each helm station. The GPS/radar/depth will remain separate on Brigadoon as long as the Admiral and I are her caretakers.

 

[Capten]

Mike,

I both disagree and agree. I like integrated units and believe that they are beneficial in various applications – especially with space/budget constraints.

That being said, I agree and have a plethora of back-ups and redundant systems. Although I have never had a major piece of electronic equipment fail on me when I needed it, I do maintain 3 GPS chartplotters, 4 VHF radios, 2 depth sounders (3 transducers), 2 sea temp gauges, 1 Loran C & 1 handheld GPS, 1 high power cellular phone (multiple small ones), a separate sumlog, but only 1 radar (no room for the extra antenna ).

Even if all hell breaks loose, I still have my compass, paper charts, and binoculars – right?

 

[Jackman]

I'm shopping for a radar/chartplotter unit as well. (Replacing my current electronics. Have a Furuno 582L so far with my older electronics). Anyhow, it seems that the choices most are making are between Furuno and Raymarine. I personally don't care about "pretty colors" on the screen...if I have them on a top notch unit that's great but it doesn't matter to me one way or the other. My search is focusing on what's the most functionally accurate unit for my purposes, which doesn't necesarilly mean easy to use either because I can figure things out if it means getting a better unit. I go offshore quite a bit in all "doable" conditions, meaning not in extrordinarily poor weather. I don't want fog or rain or darkness keeping me in port as it has over the past so I want the best radar unit between these two. I want to be able to see birds, track storms and see two targets with the best possible resolution. I can't seem to decide. I've looked at furuno and raymarine units as far as specifications and on paper it looks like furuno is better as far as accuracy and target separation because their beam size is narrower on the higher power units. If I'm looking at the correct information Raymarine units have a much larger beam meaning target separation relative to furuno probably isn't as great. Remember, I've only seen this stuff on paper....I will look at both units at the AC show when I go. Anybody want to help me out here before I make a mistake spending a bunch of money I could have otherwise put in my gas tank!

 

[Capten]

Jackman,

I'm a Furuno fan so I would vote Furuno but I understand that the RayMarine equipment is very good also. Whatever brand you go with, get the most powerful unit (ie: 4kw+) you can afford/fit on the 32. My understanding is that power is what will help you punch through the thick stuff and mark smaller targets (birds, etc.). Back in '84 we had a 10kw 72 mile Furuno unit on our 32' SF. It was overkill but man could I pick out targets! Back then the units were silly big. We had to go with the old-school mono unit complete with hood because the "new" color unit wouldn't fit.

Curious - Do you fish out of Indian River?

 

[Nonchalant1]

Regardless of which unit you pick, there's one thing you absolutely must get if you get an LCD display and that's a TFT color LCD . The difference between the new TFT LCDs abd the old "daylight viewable LCDs is huge. I don't know what TFT really is, but the TFT type LCDs are simply excellent for viewing in real daylight.

I a TFT LCD sreen on my Standard Horizon CP1000 GPS which is capable of radar interface where it can actually line up the radar and the GPS chart to put the radar images right on your map display. I think that takes the Standard Horizon radar, but how cool would that be? See the Standard Horizon website to see examples.

Doug Shuman

 

[REBrueckner]

Narrow beam width for target discrimination and higher power for distance and punching thru nearby adverse weather to see distant storms and targets are the two key criteria.
If one brand is a few percent less prone to failure than another, or a few percent better in one critical quality measure than another, the choice likely doesn't make much difference. And likely nobody really knows if those fine granularities really exist or not. On the other hand, it's pretty easy to find out who provide top notch local service, by asking around, and if that's important, then that should be a significant consideration.
I have both a 19889 Raytheon and a 1999 Furuno aboard and find them roughly comparable in display quality with the open array Furuno perhaps marginally better than the dome Raytheon, as would be expected. But it's not obvious. The newer Furuno clearly has simpler control operation than the older Raytheon, likely a reflect of vintage rather than design quality.

I bought the Furuno radar for a simple self evident reason: Most of the commercial boats I saw in NY,Ct & Mass used them; that was sufficient for me. However, in cruising Maine I noticed that from harbor to harbor both favorite engines and favorite radars varies. Furuno is,I beliebve, the most widely used; In Nova Scotia, Raytheon is most popular.
Nobody uses MTU, Perkins Cummins or Volvo engines that I saw; Cats seem most popular, John Deer far less so, and Yanmars are also rare; commercial people like their old two cycle Detroits. Who knows which are "best"? Not even the guys who use them 2,000 hours annually!!!!! Yet one ferry I crawled around during haul out had a Volvo with something like 25,000 hours, and only rountine maintenance, like injectors, I was told.

Remember, "If you just can't decide between two options, likely there is not much difference between them".

 

[Jackman]

One thing I've been confuded about is the different models ect for the same level of model. By this I mean a Furuno 1933 for example may have a black box model, NT model ect. How do you know which one to choose and for what reasons? (My boat currently has no radar so I wouldn't have a clue.)

 

[Avenger]

I don't know what TFT really is, but the TFT type LCDs are simply excellent for viewing in real daylight.

TFT stands for Thin Film Transistor. That's all I know about it, but I couldn't resist pointing out more useless trivia. Anybody want to know what TNT stands for?

 

[Capten]

One thing I've been confuded about is the different models ect for the same level of model. By this I mean a Furuno 1933 for example may have a black box model, NT model ect. How do you know which one to choose and for what reasons? (My boat currently has no radar so I wouldn't have a clue.)

Jackman,

1933 designates the model regarding power, range, and type of equipment (radar/chart plotter). The 'C' designates 'Color'. Black Box would be a unit without a display (if you were adding to an existing NavNet color sounder display or other compatible display/computer). NT is the software that unit would use (ie: chart cartridges - C-MapNT vs. C-Map vs. Navionics). IMHO Navionics is better for fishing and NavionicsGold is the best.

See: http://tinyurl.com/8olyt

If you want to talk to a professional (without obligation) about the different models and what would suit your needs best, try contacting Consumers Marine Electronics. They are a retail outfit that has pretty knowledgeable/helpful people just a phone call or email away. Good prices too.

http://www.consumersmarine.com//aboutus.cfm

If you want to talk to a very good local (MD Eastern Shore) marine electronics outfit that can do installs also, feel free to contact me and I will refer you to my guys. Or go to the Gallery section and look at my electronics photos.

pfhannum@yahoo.com

 

[Jackman]

Thanks Paul,

Okay...so I currently have a new Furuno FCV-582L. I want a radar unit/charplotter that will give me radar capability of 64nm, use the navionics gold card you were talking about, open array of at least 4ft, would also go with 6ft, stand alone unit that could be networked with other units. I don't think I want the one-screen does it all Navnet, but if you can convince me otherwise. Which unit/setup should I look into. Also when you order these is the open array separate from the unit? What am I talking, ballpark-wise for the unit and the open array?

 

[MicroKap]

I have had experience with both Raymarine and Furuno. On my last boat, I had installed the Raymarine RL80 Radar/Chart/Depth. When it worked, it was very good visually, but somewhat complicated with all of the menus. The GPS antenna was replaced 3 times within a year before I sold the boat in June 2004. This was due to manufacturers' recall of the product each time. I hope they figured it out.

I currently have an older, but powerful open array Furuno radar on my 1980 60' Sportfish and have a Northstar 952 connected to a Sony Vaio computer with LCD screen. Using Maptech on the computer, it's a much less expensive system to upgrade/install than a new Raymarine or Furuno, however, in an enclosed flybridge you can do it.

The one thing that I did get out of looking at all the new electronics is "how much am I really going to expand the system." Sometimes you pay a lot more for having the ability to add many more modules to your system. In reality, if your only driving station is on the flybridge, you'll probably not need to worry about putting a monitor in your salon or cockpit. There are lalso ess expensive methods if you want to watch a DVD while driving. You should actually be paying attention to your surroundings and navigation equipment. When was the last time you had an urge to leave the rest of your group so you could go up on the flybridge and watch that DVD that you just bought, even if it was Captain Ron?

Engine room cameras are a completely different thing. If you can get them on a dedicated screen and have the proper amount of light down in the engine room, I would highly recommend them, not just for your own viewing, but if you have to take care of something down there, the person left on the flybridge has the ability to see that you are okay while the engines are running. I'm not sure if the wireless surveillence cameras that you can buy at Home Depot would be up for the job, but it would be interesting to see if anyone has used them rather than running all of the wires into the engine room.

I hope to get to the Atlantic City boatshow as well, but since my wife just had our first child two weeks ago, we'll have to see how it goes.

Larry K.
1980 60' Sportfish
Monmouth Beach, NJ

 

[Capten]

Jackman,

After a quick review, I might recommend the Furuno NavNet vx2 Model 1944C. I think it will do everything you are looking for. The new generation of NavNet has even better color display. My electronics guy says the complete package (parts) will run around $6,500.00 ($7,595.00 retail).

Check it out: http://tinyurl.com/ar2mm

Definitely plan to go to at least one of the shows and try out the different units/brands/sizes/software in person. As lacking as the Baltimore show has been in the past (MY OPINION!), I know at least 2 electronics vendors will be there with displays. I think this would be a local show for you and the weekdays/evenings are usually not busy at all.

 

[Jackman]

I found two places where the 1944c package was 5747.95. I might have to grab one.

 

[Capt K]

Congrats, Larry!!

K

 

[Capten]

Try this one also - Anchor Express $5739.99 + $19.99 DHL overnight delivery.

http://tinyurl.com/7ua22

 

[Jackman]

Thanks Paul!


That offer is pretty good. Do you think the show prices are any better than that?

 

[Passages]

I hope to get to the Atlantic City boatshow as well, but since my wife just had our first child two weeks ago, we'll have to see how it goes.

Larry,
A newborn in the house? You ain't goin to no boat show. Your time would be better spent trying to catch up on missed REM sleep. Congrats! Get the little guy (or gal) out on the water ASAP. They'll love it, sleep soundly while undewrway and grow up loving boats & the sea.

 

[Capten]

Thanks Paul!


That offer is pretty good. Do you think the show prices are any better than that?

I'm not sure if the guys at the shows can do much better than the ones on the net.

Since it looks like that is an everyday price for that outfit there may not be a big rush to buy right now. I might consider printing a copy of the ad off the web and having it with you at the shows. Go compare the machines in person and make sure you like it. If you do, see what the best deal is that the show guys can do then whip out the web ad if it is better. You might be able to get a couple of vendors at the show to get into a bidding match - but more likely, they won't be able to come close on the price.

Another idea is to bring an ad for a competing manufacturer’s product (RayMarine, Northstar, etc.) in case a factory rep is there. If the Furuno guy thinks you are leaning towards the competition, he might come down in price or throw in some goodies.

 

[Jackman]

Paul...

To answer your question about where I fish out of....Yes, I fish out of Indian River Inlet Delaware. You familiar with that area...or do I have a realy bad reputation that I don't know about? Joking...I really don't know that many people...maybe a few at our marina but overall we have kept to ourselves because the work on the boat has kept us busy. Maybe this year things will be different.

Just found out I got more tickets for the Atlantic City Boat Show...which I will be attending unlike the NY boatshow I missed. Hopefully I can talk to a couple of Furuno dealers there.

 

[Capten]

Yeah I'm familiar with that area. Are you north or south side? We do most of our fishing with our boat out of Ocean City, MD. We did spend a season recently out of the north side, state run marina and I have friends that I fish with out of that marina also. There was a nice 32' Flybridge there for sale a couple of years ago - is that the one you have? I haven't been in by boat since they renovated.

We ran a 32' Hatt SF w/454s for 10 seasons. Great boat. Tough as nails. We fished some really nasty days when a lot of the big boys didn't even go. She always got us home safely.