Oil Missing from crankcase

[doc g]

Need help from you guys (esp. Genesis). On summer cruise with family . Made run from Block Island to Manasquan ,NJ yesterday. Boat has run flawlessly for the past two weeks. Did preflight this a.m. and while retrieving anchor, oil pressure alarm goes off on starboard engine, immediately shut down. No oil in crankcase, no oil in water, no oil in the coolant. Engines are 1271TI 650-horsepower. Oil consumption has been normal all season.

Could this be blower seals? Any help would be greatly appreciated, as we're sitting here on the hook trying to head back to the Chesapeake Bay.

MicroKap, do you know anyone in the area?

 

[doc g]

Update,
Now oil is coming back up on the dipstick. It's about 1/2 full now.
Pat

 

[Genesis]

Hmmm... The oil went SOMEWHERE. If not out the exhaust or into the cooling system then it went into the airbox - where are your airbox drains routed? If a crap can, is it full?

If the oil is in the airbox then it either came from the blower seals (likely) or a turbo seal (possible), since you've eliminated external leaks.

DO NOT start the engine until you figure out where it went. Come back in on one if you have to. If you have a blower seal failure you can either have a runaway or hydrolock situation develop very easily.

 

[Avenger]

If the engine was burning that much oil that fast (i.e. blower seals) it would produce truckloads of blue smoke. If it's starting to come back slowly it's probably a drainback issue. I'm not 100% familiar with Detroit oil systems but I'd pull a valve cover and see if the drainbacks in the head are plugged. Wait until your dipstick reads full first otherwise it will be in the bilge. Hopefully someone with experience on this engine will have a quick answer. In the meantime I'll try to find a 71 series manual in my collection. Good luck.

 

[Genesis]

To get that kind of drainback problem on a Detroit would be a major big deal.

The thing is that at idle you can dump a LOT of oil into the airbox and not burn it - if the airbox drains are open, at least. Off idle and into the power you WILL burn it and it WILL show up as hideous amounts of smoke, but at idle its possible for it to drain out the airbox drain ports and not go into the cylinders. Since the original poster noted that he was at idle while pulling anchor.....

You have to figure out where the oil went. It went SOMEWHERE. If its in the engine (e.g. in the valve covers) then it will all come back (slowly) and once it does pull the valve covers and see what's up. After an hour (from the posting times) I suspect you've got all the drainback you're going to get.

If your level stabilizes at half of what you had originally then its highly likely that the oil is not anywhere connected to the crankcase, which is bad. Checking the crap cans (if you have them) will tell you if the oil went into the airbox - if not, and there were no obvious symptoms (e.g. lots of smoke and no oil on the water) then it gets tougher - one of the other possibles is a turbo exhaust side seal failure, but that leaves an obvious mess in the water and plenty of smoke to go with it.

Its worth pulling the valve covers just to check and make sure its not a drainback problem once the level DOES stabilize, but I give that a low probability - the upper end lube on these engines into the valve cover area doesn't comprise that much volume at idle, even on a cold engine where pressures are higher.

 

[doc g]

From what I understand, drainback is never an issue on "v" engines as it drains back towards the center of the engine at the cam area. Karl- it appears that the airbox drains are routed back to the block , coupled with the airseps drain. Can I pull an airbox cover and check it there? Should I disconnect the drainback lines and see if oil comes out ? Also would a blower seal just blow like that at idle ? No oil / smoke problems prior to this morning. How would I check a turbo seal problem ?

 

[Genesis]

If the airbox drains are routed back to the crankcase then either the oil is IN the airbox or it exited the boat.

Drainback problems are highly unlikely on these engines. NOT impossible - but highly unlikely.

You can pull an airbox cover if you can get to one, but you will probably destroy the gasket and require a new one. If you don't have a new cover..... also, if there's a lot of oil in there its going to be a hellish mess, so be careful doing it.

The oil went somewhere... gotta find it....

(Yes, you can lose a seal on a startup - that's when pressures are the highest, as the oil is cold.)

 

[MikeP]

What did the oil pressure gauge show when the alarm went off?

An oil pressure ALARM means that there MIGHT be an oil pressure problem, there MIGHT be an oil pressure alarm sending unit problem, there MIGHT be a wiring problem between the sensor and alarm system, or there MIGHT be a problem in the alarm circuit board itself.

There might be nothing at all wrong with the engine...

 

[Avenger]

Sorry Mike, if the pan is empty, somethings wrong and it's not electrical.

As far as drainback on a V engine, the heads have to drain at their lowest point. The cams are on the high side towards the middle, the head would be swimming in oil if it had to get up there to drain and every time you pulled a valve cover you'd get a bath. I suggested starting there because it's easy and cheap. I prefer start cheap and work up to more expensive especially with people of unknown mechanical skills.

The parts book for a 12V-71 shows a drain on each end of the block at the lower side of the heads. Doesn't specify if you can get a wire down there with the heads on though.

 

[doc g]

Just checked right and left airbox drains. Both clear. Nothing in either hose and they both are clear, blew air thru both. Is it possible that a turbo seal or blower seal could have blown and I shut it down so quickly that I'm not seeing anything in the exhaust?
Pat

 

[Genesis]

Possible turbo seal on the exhaust side. Blower seal would have dumped the oil into the airbox - some would still be there.

If the oil is still missing its SOMEWHERE. If you can't find it you have to assume that it left the boat. That much oil should have shown up in the exhaust if the turbo seal on the turbine side failed.

I'd pull the valve covers at this point, but I suspect you'll find nothing substantial. If there was a drainback problem though with half the crankcase volume missing it'll be REAL obvious (and a real big mess!)

 

[MikeP]

I think we are over-engineering the problem. Does anyone seriously believe that an engine can go from running fine to suddenly having all the oil "disappear?" Cmon! Let's check the easy stuff first.

He said their IS oil in the engine:
"Now oil is coming back up on the dipstick. It's about 1/2 full now" Right, as the oil drains back, the dipstick starts to register again - the dipstick does NOT go to the bottom of the pan. This is why DD says wait 20 minutes after shutdown to check the oil.

My guess is that this is totally an alarm problem.

Start the engine, check the oil pressure gauge. If you are not comfortable with that, pull the oil pressure sending unit, have someone crank the engine while holding the governer in the shut off position. See if there is oil pumping out of the sending unit boss. If not, go home, as G suggested, on the other engine.

 

[Avenger]

Very true Mike re: the quantity of oil vs. the dipstick length. I don't own a DD but I've never seen an engine that made enough oil disappear in a few minutes of idling to no longer register on the dipstick at all (assuming it was full before it was started.) But you're quite correct that we may be overestimating the amount of oil that's gone AWOL. This is why remote diagnosis is so difficult, we can only respond to what we're told. Didn't mean to step on any toes.

 

[MikeP]

I'm sorry if my post, above, seems condescending or otherwise insulting. In re-reading it, I guess it could be taken that way.

I've been working on engines since I was 15, I'm now 58. I guess what I'm trying to say, and should have in a nicer way is: Don't let some mechanic mess with the engine until you perform a couple of very simple trouble-shooting checks. Someone could make a fortune on this engine especially if you already believe you have a serious problem.

Maybe you do but I believe you don't. But regardless, some simple troubleshooting will determine it either way.

 

[Avenger]

Didn't view it that way at all. And here I was saying start simple and cheap, you were way ahead of me on that one!

 

[doc g]

All right, guys. Problem solved. Engines don't have oil pressure if they're not spinning up. Checked fuel system and found that there was a blockage in the plumbing to the starboard engine from the aft tank. The oil issue was due to the fact that I have large bypass filters which hold three gallons and the time it takes for the oil to drain back to the crankcase. More on this when I get home.

Thanks everybody for your speedy replies. Now I can have a beer and get the hell outta here!

Pat

 

[Genesis]

Yep - that's what I said - start simple and cheap.

But - don't run it if you think the oil is going overboard. If it is, you will do significant damage.

IF the oil was there before startup, and now its down halfway to the bottom of the stick from the "FULL" mark (e.g. below "ADD") then you lost a couple of gallons - which is enough to get the pickup to aerate and the alarm to go off.

That's not "all the oil" but its enough to be trouble. It went SOMEWHERE!

I've never seen a Detroit that is off the bottom of the stick immediately after a shutdown. Down from Full to Add, yes - but not completely off the stick.

BTW Detroit says wait 20 minutes. The original two posts were more than an hour apart.

 

[MikeP]

AHA! Large bypass filters!

As Paul Harvey used to say, "Stand by for the REST of the story!"

Hope you have a good and uneventful trip back, Pat!

Oh, and what equipment are you using on the boat to do this internet thing?

 

[Genesis]

Aha!

Three gallons (!) - that's a lot!

 

[doc g]

So , I promised you guys an update ............ Had a fuel problem which caused the engine to run slow < 300 RPM , oil pressure alarm goes off , I quickly shut off w/o noticing RPM. Check oil , all gone . Huh, it was 3/4 full . Where did 14 gals of oil go ? Bet those people with all the pretty houses down wind are gonna be pissed, maybe it's in the bilge and I'll be spared the Coast Guard and EPA hassles,boy that'll be a big mess, maybe the engine just ate it all, turbo seals ,blower seals,head gaskets,air boxes........no dumb azz the dipstick does not go all the way to the bottom of the pan , it's a big engine it takes time to drain back....20 mins+ (thanks Karl) especially with the bypass filters I have . It is amazing how quickly we jump to "worst case scenario" in our minds . Anyway blew out the fuel lines , changed filters , re-primed, rolled that big boy over manually to ensure no hydrolocks , oil magically reappears on the dipstick and she lights right off on start up . We got out of the Metedeconk in time to make Atlantic City by dark thirty . As the sun was setting and we opened a bottle of champagne ( to celebrate not having major boat problems) the "Admiral" had tears in her eyes (have not seen that in years). She and I both were so amazed at how quickly all you guys responded and helped us out , it was great to know that there are GREAT PEOPLE out there who care and want to help . I guess it's true of the boating community in general but even more here on the website with our little "Hatteras Family" !
Thanks Again Guys, Pat ,Shari and Caitlin
Mike - the Sony GC 83 cellular card in the laptop coupled to Cingular Data Service is how we get online wirelessly from the boat. I've also installed one of Digital Antenna's wireless cell phone repeaters that boosts the signal. Still working out software kinks , but it works quite well. I've got more info if anyone needs it