Lithium battery fired at sea

[cww]

Every time there's one of these threads it always separates into two camps. One side is always "lithium iron batteries are totally safe!" and then the other side sits over there pointing out that, well sure, except it caught on fire. Nobody is using cell phone-style lithium batteries in a boat, these installations are almost certainly lifepo batteries. They're still catching fire regularly. They shouldn't, but they are. Not sure if it's the combination of saltwater, bad chargers, or whatever it is, but clearly it's happening. I'm not sure what to think.

 

[Captain Ralph]

Every time there's one of these threads it always separates into two camps. One side is always "lithium iron batteries are totally safe!" and then the other side sits over there pointing out that, well sure, except it caught on fire. Nobody is using cell phone-style lithium batteries in a boat, these installations are almost certainly lifepo batteries. They're still catching fire regularly. They shouldn't, but they are. Not sure if it's the combination of saltwater, bad chargers, or whatever it is, but clearly it's happening. I'm not sure what to think.

Any thing with a L in the battery name concerns me.
I know were typing about lil batteries and big banks in the same page, boath are a concern.

Where is the Green in them anyway??

 

[zigzag930]

"LiFePRo4"? What are these? Something new or do you mean LiFePo4?

To hopefully put a button on this Lithium topic for now: High capacity Marine Lithium Iron Oxide ("LiFePRo4") are engineered & designed for safety, but they are pretty new so some folks may want to wait it out a little longer. That said, LiFePro batteries are designed to be extremely safe for use on yachts, at the expense of efficiency and power density.

Lithium (LiOn) technology in 787 batteries, Tesla batteries, Dewalt batteries, scooter batteries, even handheld VHFs & iPhones are not the same thing at all--they are NOT LiFePro4 chemistry and those batteries are very dangerous if mishandled (i.e., punctured or shorted). They are designed for extremely high-power density (WHrs/pound) and we must be careful with them. A drawer full of loose Dewalt LiOn batteries with a bunch of sharp tools on a boat at sea is an accident/serious fire waiting to happen. A slightly damaged untended LiOn battery on a charger can overheat, swell, and explode. You can't put out the fire until all the Lithium is explosively consumed.

LiFePro battery house banks (what many folks have been installing on their sailboats and some powerboats for 8-10 years--because of their extremely high capacity, carefree usage, and long-lasting service life of 10-20 years) are proving to be extremely safe and frankly revolutionary. LiFePro batteries are safer because they were designed to be safe--due to the stable chemistry and the built-in battery management systems (BMSs). We all know that lead acid high-capacity batteries on a yacht must be installed and charged properly, or they will burn up wiring or explode battery acid all over the ER--or like mine once did, try to kill you in your sleep with Sulphur gas.

It's important to note LiFePro battery installations are not just "drop-in" solutions. They also require other (affordable) electrical upgrades to the yacht electrical system for safety due to the LiFePro characteristics. LiFePro banks can charge and discharge much faster than equivalent capacity AGMs so require smart chargers, alternators, monitors and fuses that can handle higher in-rush amperage. In my opinion, a modern well designed LiFePro system has now become affordable, efficient, safe and the way of the future.

The argument that it's inherently safer to sleep at anchor with a 20-40 year old GenSet running while AGMs are charging in the ER is likely to sound silly with time.

 

[oscarvan]

One thing is sure is that conventional batteries, whether Lead acid or AGMs, will not explode and cause a fire.

You sure about that? Ever hear of the hydrogen coming out of a battery that's "cooking" ? Do a Youtube search for LA exploding and you're in for hours of entertainment. Yes, AGM's are less susceptible but not risk free.

In a PROPER installation with LA batteries secured in a VENTED, no spark compartment the risk is mostly mitigated.

Bottom line is that containing energy in ANY form, chemical, mechanical or otherwise brings the risk of this energy being released in an uncontrolled fashion. From gas exploding, diesel burning, hydrogen exploding, nuclear reactors running away and various new chemistries doing bad stuff...... Even a stack of firewood can cause trouble although the risk is very low.

EVERY technology brings risk. So the crux of the discussion here is whether various technologies, like LiFePO4 batteries, have matured enough that the risk is considered acceptable. Lack of knowledge or data makes any determination pointless.

BTW, your (predictable) China dig is (as usual) uninformed. Even Victron makes stuff in the Far East. It all depends on the manufacturer and the specs. Yes, there are a lot of Chinese made sub par knock offs. There are also a lot of quality products made there. (This does NOT speak to the politics of all that, for which these pages are NOT the place.......)

 

[Pascal]

A smart multiple stage charger with temp sensor is very unlikely to cook a conventional battery

Chinese manufacturers have a history of cutting corners and quality. Nothing political about this.

 

[52CMY]

"LiFePRo4"? What are these?

I mistakenly added "LiFePRo4" to my computer dictionary instead of LiFePO4 and the rest is error on top of stupid error.

Sleeping on a yacht is full of unique and substantial risks that can kill or injure us more quickly & easily than at home. It's always up to us to identify and mitigate the elevated risk so the residual risk is acceptable for us and our families to stay safe.

As technology advances, we start to except what was once too hazardous like sleeping without somebody up and on anchor watch (trusting an anchor alarm), running a diesel genset all night (with auto shutdown and fire suppression systems), or not buying current paper charts and not updating position religiously (in favor of trusting GPS chartplotters) and not staring at the ship's barometer (in favor of a predictwind subscription), or momentarily leaving the helm with just your wife at the wheel (perhaps only with a good autopilot). All of these advances have taken time to accept. But when they were first introduced anchor alarms, GPS, and Predictwind all had their naysayers and safety concerns because they were new.

In my opinion, a well-designed electrical system upgrade with quality Victron Quattros/Cerbo GX (for example) and a large Lithium house bank properly installed, safely increases both efficiency and redundancy, while it reduces OVERALL risk today by reducing other existing risks (like total electrical failure, shorepower fires, GenSet overload/fire/failure/CO, and lead acid battery abuse/failure/fire/Hydrogen Sulfide gas poisoning, and throwing out those dangerous gasoline emergency honda generators some carry as backup). My 2 cents.

 

[Pascal]

Over the last 20 years we ve probably averaged 100/130 nights a year on the hook running diesel gens whether on our Hatt or on the boats with run, anywhere between 70 and 116’. All with diesel gens, fire systems and shut downs inspected annually, properly maintained LA or AGM banks ans smart chargers. And CO/Smoke detectors thru out the boats. And anchor alarms. No worries whatsoever.

As mentioned, conventional batteries aren’t going to start a fire unless abused or ignored. I ve had AGMs failing and the smell / bulging is impossible to ignore. Whenever that happened, I disconnect them right away. Interestingly I ve yet to experience a lead acid battery failure besides getting weak

What scares me about lithium batteries is how the fire can’t be put out using traditional extinguishing agents and how they can start fires if they get wet. I know batteries aren’t supposed to get wet but it can happen. Dealing with flooding is tough enough, I don’t want to have to worry about a battery starting a fire because the management system failed when it got wet.

The biggest question is why take a risk on a heavy boat where an extra 1000 or even 2000 lbs of lead isn’t going to make a difference.

 

[Captain Ralph]

In my opinion, a well-designed electrical system upgrade with quality Victron Quattros/Cerbo GX (for example) and a large Lithium house bank properly installed, safety increases both efficiency and redundancy, while it reduces OVERALL risk today by reducing other existing risks (like total electrical failure, shorepower fires, GenSet overload/fire/failure/CO, and lead acid battery abuse/failure/fire/Hydrogen Sulfide gas poisoning, and throwing out those dangerous gasoline emergency honda generators some carry as backup). My 2 cents.

Safety increased?
My one penny argument; you mentioned; “like total electrical failure, shorepower fires, GenSet overload/fire/failure/CO, and lead acid battery abuse/failure/fire/Hydrogen Sulfide gas poisoning, and throwing out those dangerous gasoline emergency honda generators some carry as backup”
These are battery related?

Your notes are serious issues dealing with SFB operators and maintenance issues that will always be present, not battery issues.

Back to batteries; Per your install example, Safety was reduced IMO. All you did was save some weight while adding complication that you may not be able to handle if (when) something goes wrong.
There is not much more, as simple that what we have now, Flooded, VRLA, AGM batteries and later chargers.

Further; Where is the efficiency in the cost $$ and environmental damages done in getting this to you? You saved some weight and spent a lot of money. Have you witnessed a Lithium mine yet? Hell opened up..

 

[Boatsb]

For the less informed.


800 AH USABLE at 48 volts.

Agm = 120 AH usable at 12 volts in an 8D at 170 pounds.
24 batteries so we can round to about the 800 usable. (Slightly less FYI)
That's 4000 lbs of batteries.
Charge efficiency is low. About 80%. Heat and gasses (hydrogen) released.
Must maintain full charges or battery will sulfate.
They do explode. They do short internaly. They don't last more than a out 400 cycles.


LIFEPO = 330 AH LiFePo has 260 usable AH at 12 volts.
12 batteries ( 3 Banks of 4) is 780 AH USABLE
66 LBS EACH so under 800 lbs.
Half the connections to worry about.
Charge efficiency in the 96% range.
No need to top off to full charge.
I've not seen a properly designed and implemented system burn. Although an electrical fire can come from any type of battery.
3 to 5000 cycles expected life also cuts into the damage from mining lithium vs lead.

 

[rsmith]

https://e-surfer.com/en/blog/lithiu...un9TE5nYLqpQlhCEeeGI3dBoS2e7LqGumJHoDV30RPG5M

Probably most of you guys are too old and heavy for these but I got into the Efoil craze and found the lithium batteries are a huge problem. Several people have had them cook off in their houses. These batteries like everything else today have cheap Chinese knockoffs also. Quality of what you buy could be a factor also

 

[Pascal]

We have an e-foil on the 116 and always take precautions especially when charging like charging it on the alum plate floor of the ER away from anything. The battery is high quality made in California I believe and the charger is industrial grade. As soon as the battery is charged we disconnect it.

But yes, it is a concern.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

It is unfair to compare LIPO and LiFePo4 batteries. They are completely different beasts used for different applications.

That said, I wouldn't have either on my boat...... yet. But I can see that LiFePO4 are definitely the safest and have the best properties for use as an inverter bank.

 

[Captain Ralph]

LiFePO4 are definitely the safest and have the best properties for use as an inverter bank.

They still have to recharge sometime. I do not see any advantage except for weight saving,

I'm replacing my 2 x 3, 600+AH, 24Vdc inverter bank with the near same AGM batteries (6 x PC1800-FT).
Much less the cost, Nothing complicated.
Countless in worry free sleep.

 

[rsmith]

We have an e-foil on the 116 and always take precautions especially when charging like charging it on the alum plate floor of the ER away from anything. The battery is high quality made in California I believe and the charger is industrial grade. As soon as the battery is charged we disconnect it.

But yes, it is a concern.

How hot does the battery get after a hard run? I’ve found it’s like my 20v Dewalt batteries after extended use in the sawzall almo too hot to hold.

 

[Pascal]

It doesn’t they very hot. Warm is a better description. The electronics are water cooled so they don’t build up any heat in the sealed battery compartment. The battery pack is tight against the bottom of the board and the lid so the heat from the battery gets transferred to the skin and cooled by outside water.

 

[rsmith]

It doesn’t they very hot. Warm is a better description. The electronics are water cooled so they don’t build up any heat in the sealed battery compartment. The battery pack is tight against the bottom of the board and the lid so the heat from the battery gets transferred to the skin and cooled by outside water.

Which mfg? Waydoo or Lift? Lifts are twice the price and better made. I just can’t justify 12-14k for a foil. It’s fun but after you master it it’s kinda boring

 

[Pascal]

Lift. Very nice quality hardware but yes… expensive.

Ours gets a lot of use

 

[SKYCHENEY]

They still have to recharge sometime. I do not see any advantage except for weight saving,

I'm replacing my 2 x 3, 600+AH, 24Vdc inverter bank with the near same AGM batteries (6 x PC1800-FT).
Much less the cost, Nothing complicated.
Countless in worry free sleep.

I meant safest of the Lithium types.

 

[rsmith]

Lift. Very nice quality hardware but yes… expensive.

Ours gets a lot of use

How’s the learning curve for guests? The guy that taught me to wind surf started a efoil school took me 3 lessons before I could stand and was comfortable.

 

[Pascal]

20 years old start foiling in no time. Older guests… takes longer.