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Lithium battery fired at sea

  • Thread starter Thread starter rsmith
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Pascal said:
Another close call. Container burned up on the way to port

https://gcaptain.com/container-lithium-battery-fire/
Click to expand...

This was a major update for me: The Felicity Ace SANK- news to me!
Many potential owners, esp. of Porsche's, had been waiting for their car for close to a year!
=============================
March 1, 2022

The Felicity Ace car carrier has sunk in the Atlantic Ocean.

The ship’s manager, MOL Ship Management (Singapore), confirmed that the vessel sank around 9 a.m. local time on Tuesday approximately 220 nautical miles off the Azores Islands, citing initial reports from the on-site salvage team.

Salvage vessels will remain in the area to monitor the situation.

The sinking of the Felicity Ace comes nearly two weeks after a fire broke out in the ship’s cargo area.

Reporting has indicated Felicity Ace was carrying around 4,000 vehicles, including some luxury brands like Porsches, Bentleys, and Lamborghinis, along with VW and Audis. The value of the cargo has been estimated to be over $400 million.

The fire on the Panama-flagged ship started Wednesday, February 16, approximately 90 nautical miles southwest of the Azores as the ship was underway from Embden, Germany, where Volkswagen AG has a manufacturing plant, to the U.S. East Coast.

All 22 crew members abandoned ship and brought to safety.
================================
 
So I have multiple LiOn Batteries, most recently the Milwaukee 18V, termed the Red Lithium. I see that there is a Recall on the 18v Red Lithium "Extra Power" batts.

This is starting to get concerning! I have been involved in two houses fires and 2, maybe 3, major industrial fires. The "movies/TV" totally understate how bad the conditions are. ZERO visibility- no running around looking for people- you cannot see your hand in front of your face. I was on the roof, with a fire hose, in one case, of a 5 hour commercial fire; a paper mill warehouse caught fire. It was a steel commercial roof, but still could have fallen in.

A big Bertram and a Hatt (are there small ones?) caught fire at a Marina, in Cheboygan, back around 1996-7. Both were totaled and hoisted up on a barge. They sat there for 2-3 years and you could smell the stink, blow off of them for years, every time you motored by!

So this LiOn batt fire issue not to be taken lightly.
 
There are commercially available Li fire containment bags available sized for laptop or phone sized batteries-- the prices have come down to <$750. You'll need a fireproof gauntlet or two to get the battery/device into the bag. Throwing the shorted battery out a window or over the side or perhaps into a microwave/oven might be reasonable too but you'll want a gauntlet or welders glove.
 
It’s a little long but the pilot talks about a bag containing the fire, most likely he is referring to the Fire Containment Bag used for battery fires.

https://youtu.be/s9CFk58H8C0
 
Is it something chemical about the battery that causes this? I’ve had a couple batteries blow up over the years from forgetting to water them enough, I think most of us have. It just cracks the plastic casing and you go buy a new one and replace it, no big deal. I just watched those videos and the lithium ones just burn, and burn, and burn. If this happened on a boat where there is no easy way to get it outside without catching the rest of the boat on fire, you’d lose the whole boat. All these people with the elaborate inverter setups and lithium batteries, several just on the forum here, THIS is what you’d look forward to if something goes wrong? That is a helluva safety hazard.
 
Remember about 7 or 8 years ago when Boeing had to ground all its 787 and address an issue on its lithium batteries? If I remember there were battery fires on the ground. They had to redesign the batteries and encase them in containment boxes. And these were high end batteries.

These batteries need battery management systems but what happens when it fails?
 
Another case of lithium batteriessinking a boat…

One of the Imocas entered in the transatlantic race Route du Rhum suffered a ballast tank failure a couple of days ago north of the Azores. Hundreds of gallons of sea water flooded the interior of the boat and the battery bank. Lithium batteries… a day later a fire started which the skipper put out. Or thought he did. A few hours later, the batteries exploded and he barely made it into his life raft. He was rescued a few hours later by a container ship

https://www.routedurhum.com/en/actualite/575

I wonder if the imoca class is going to reconsider the use of lithium batteries, these are the type of boats which race around the world solo non stop every 4 years. Chances of rescue in the South Pacific are pretty much zero should this happen down there
 
So what is the advantage of a lithium Ion battery over an AMG or lead acid?? Why put these things on a boat. I'm scared shitless about the ones in out electric scooters and JBL boombox being onboard. As soon as we get to a dock off go the scooters. Boombox stays in the cockpit.

If I could offer any advice to Elon it would be to come up with a monitoring technology for these batteries that could anticipate them brewing up to going rouge and killing them pre-emptively. If that is possible. Sure there would be false alarms at first and some pissed off people but when these things light up it's like a magnesium fire. No way it's going out until it runs out of fuel.

As for killing them pre-emptively it is a chemical reaction so maybe fairly (but not maybe cheaply) to inject the antidote chemical to neutralize before the poop hits the fan.
 
This all sounds like the problems we had with thermal runaways in Nicad batteries in military aircraft, I personally had two or three events. Luckily, none exploded. This was eventually solved by better battery maintenance. I never had a problem with civilian aircraft. Eventually this will be solved. For now , I am going to change to AGM ( Full River) and hope for the best.
 
To hopefully put a button on this Lithium topic for now: High capacity Marine Lithium Iron Oxide ("LiFePRo4") are engineered & designed for safety, but they are pretty new so some folks may want to wait it out a little longer. That said, LiFePro batteries are designed to be extremely safe for use on yachts, at the expense of efficiency and power density.

Lithium (LiOn) technology in 787 batteries, Tesla batteries, Dewalt batteries, scooter batteries, even handheld VHFs & iPhones are not the same thing at all--they are NOT LiFePro4 chemistry and those batteries are very dangerous if mishandled (i.e., punctured or shorted). They are designed for extremely high-power density (WHrs/pound) and we must be careful with them. A drawer full of loose Dewalt LiOn batteries with a bunch of sharp tools on a boat at sea is an accident/serious fire waiting to happen. A slightly damaged untended LiOn battery on a charger can overheat, swell, and explode. You can't put out the fire until all the Lithium is explosively consumed.

LiFePro battery house banks (what many folks have been installing on their sailboats and some powerboats for 8-10 years--because of their extremely high capacity, carefree usage, and long-lasting service life of 10-20 years) are proving to be extremely safe and frankly revolutionary. LiFePro batteries are safer because they were designed to be safe--due to the stable chemistry and the built-in battery management systems (BMSs). We all know that lead acid high-capacity batteries on a yacht must be installed and charged properly, or they will burn up wiring or explode battery acid all over the ER--or like mine once did, try to kill you in your sleep with Sulphur gas.

It's important to note LiFePro battery installations are not just "drop-in" solutions. They also require other (affordable) electrical upgrades to the yacht electrical system for safety due to the LiFePro characteristics. LiFePro banks can charge and discharge much faster than equivalent capacity AGMs so require smart chargers, alternators, monitors and fuses that can handle higher in-rush amperage. In my opinion, a modern well designed LiFePro system has now become affordable, efficient, safe and the way of the future.

The argument that it's inherently safer to sleep at anchor with a 20-40 year old GenSet running while AGMs are charging in the ER is likely to sound silly with time.
 
I took a lot of chemistry in high school, albeit with poor results but that's a different story. I feel compelled to point out that none of you, that I saw, got it right. The abbreviations are scientific names, not a marketing thing, and for those of you that know what it is the Periodic Table gives the correct answers:

Lithium = Li
Iron = Fe
Phosphate means there is a Phosphorus (=P) molecule with four Oxygen molecules attached.

So Lithium Iron Phosphate is the correct name of the material and the correct symbol is LiFePO4. It is what the cathode is made of.

"A" Lithium ion is correctly notated as Li+ but the "why" there is well beyond the very limited scope of discussion here. It certainly doesn't fit the marketing fashionistas.

Now please return to your expert discussion, hopefully calling things by their correct name. :p:p:p
 

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oscarvan said:
Now please return to your expert discussion, hopefully calling things by their correct name. :p:p:p
Click to expand...

You are correct, sir! I humbly stand corrected...I didn't do well in Miss Walker's HS Chemistry--she was always disappointed in my poor level of effort. Molarity vs molality...blaaa!
 
oscarvan said:
I took a lot of chemistry in high school, albeit with poor results but that's a different story. I feel compelled to point out that none of you, that I saw, got it right. The abbreviations are scientific names, not a marketing thing, and for those of you that know what it is the Periodic Table gives the correct answers:

Lithium = Li
Iron = Fe
Phosphate means there is a Phosphorus (=P) molecule with four Oxygen molecules attached.

So Lithium Iron Phosphate is the correct name of the material and the correct symbol is LiFePO4. It is what the cathode is made of.

"A" Lithium ion is correctly notated as Li+ but the "why" there is well beyond the very limited scope of discussion here. It certainly doesn't fit the marketing fashionistas.

Now please return to your expert discussion, hopefully calling things by their correct name. :p:p:p
Click to expand...


Took alot of chemistry and understand it well. Im so glad that you corrected us all for the chemistry department at HOFU.

Look at earlier posts where I discussed the differences between the different chemistries and the properties.

Good thing I didn't mislead anyone on battery safety or dangers.
 
The problem is that we never really learn the exact type or brand or origins of lithium batteries suspected to be the cause of a fire on a boat. This makes it very difficult to make a case for or against

One thing is sure is that conventional batteries, whether Lead acid or AGMs, will not explode and cause a fire. Yes if installed outside a secured battery boxes, you will have a nasty clean up on your hands.

Properly installed conventional batteries with quality chargers will not burn up the wiring. Now if they are ignored, with growing corrosion, undersized wiring and un-fused then all bets are off

In the case of the Imoca racer that went up in flames, these boats are carefully engineered and prepared to withstand the offshore racing conditions they will encounter. I doubt they used inferior lithium batteries from china. In this case, it is clear that the failure happened after a flooding event. Is it possible that the electronic circuitry necessary for safe management and built into the batteries wasn’t completely water proof?

I hope more information comes out
 
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