I Found my 1 st Hatteras, Maybe

[cjd]

Hi All. This is a great site!!
I need some help. I am seriously looking at a 38 hatteras convertible. I am looking for safety, reliability, comfort and quality for me, my wife and 2 small boys for cruising and the fishability when the need arrives. I will be making a large move up from a 22' G.W. with an outboard. I have admired these boats for over ten years now and finally have the opportunity( Funds and backing from my wife) She is a 1989 with Detoit 671 diesels. Its advertised with only 850 hours. Asking price is 175K. Its been listed since Nov. 05' I inspected her yesterday. Nice shape. Interior seems all original.
I just need help on what to look for. Is this a good deal? Do I use a buyers agent? Do I get a survey? How much do surveys cost. WHat kind of yearly expences should I expect to pay?

Any or all recomendations would be appreciated!!
CJD

 

[Passages]

Welcome to the forum.

Going from a 22 Grady to a 38 Hatt will provide a significantly different boating experience....a better one in my opinion.

$175k seems to be a bit on the high side, but if it proves to be in top condition, its worth every bit of that.

Safety, reliability, comfort? Hey, it's a Hatteras.

Engines @ 850 hours should be fine unless abused. What's the HP? Output has a lot to do with reliability. Pumped to 450 hp, they should be good for 1500-2000 hours, 410hp - about 2000-3000 and naturals at 310hp will outlive you.

Are you dealing with the owner or a broker? It's always best to talk to the owner if possible, brokers however try to keep buyers/sellers apart as owners are often "too honest".

Best advice I can give is try not to fall in love with the boat yet. See a few others for reference. I would not use a buyers rep, but that's me. Being new to big boats, a rep might help you avoid pitfalls. They cost you nothing, and are paid through a split commission with the listing broker. Again, this might cause a problem as to who pays if there is no sellers agent involved.

After you look at a few other boats and confirm this is the one for you, make an offer contingent on sea trial, hull & engine survey. Leave a deposit which essentially says the boat is yours until you say it not yours. The deposit is refundable unless you back out of the deal without cause. Cost for a hull survey varies but will be in the $800 range. Double that for the engine survey.

If I forgot anything, it will be answered by clicking the link below:

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/boatreviews/hatteras_38_convertible.htm

Explore the other articles on that site and you'll learn a lot.

PS, This should be under "General Discussion" Category. Maybe one of the Mods can move it over for you.

 

[nor'easter]

Congrats. If the boat is not abused and surveys well....DO IT. The 671 have a long reliable history. As noted above, the life expectancy will be most related to their rating. These run forever at lower hp ratings, but tend to need MOH at ratings above 400 (435/450/485 were common). The other issue with them that will give confidence is during the sea trial making sure they turn over what their rated rpm is (likely 2300 like my 6V92s). With a reasonable load, they should turn to 2350 or even more if they are spinning the correct props and not overloaded.
I have a 39 HAT and love the ride, as I am sure you will too. Please keep us posted.

 

[Nonchalant1]

Good advice above. When you get to the survey stage, go to the "frequently asked servcie questions" section of this site and read the survey tips on the 53MY. There is a lot of stuff in there that applies to any boat that you can do yourself during the sea trial and survey.

If you can deal with the owner without an agent maybe you can save the commission. I bought mine directly and had to have my own lawyer to write the contract, but I saved a lot on commission the seller didn't have to pay and took off the price.

Get a Detroit Diesel service center to do the engine survey. It'll cost about $1,000 if done right but could save you big time. They can be located on the DD website.

Good Luck!

Doug Shuman

 

[SKYCHENEY]

You will need the hull survey to obtain insurance, but the engine survey is "optional", IMHO. It is really only for your own piece of mind. If it turns out good, then you can feel confident that those Detroits will serve you well. But, if the engine survey finds some problems, then you will have to try to negotiate a price reduction to offset any needed repairs. This may or may not happen. Some sellers are unwilling to move once the initial purchase price has been agreed upon. So, you have to ask yourself -- am I willing to spend another $1000 to find out about these engines, knowing that I may have to walk away from the deal if I don't like what I find out and the seller is unwilling to budge? This also actually applies to the hull survey too. You must first inspect the boat yourself, the best that you can, and decide how much she is worth to you. Then you will have to make an offer that is below that amount. Hopefully you can agree on a price that is below what you think she is worth and then you can arange for surveys and sea trial. The only reason I bring this up is that I have seen many buyers(especially those new to big boats), spend a bunch of money on surveys and then not close the deal because they could not come to terms. It really all depends on how anxious the seller is to get it sold.

I know others will probably disagree with me, but I guess I just hate to see someone spend a bunch on "trying" to buy a boat. Some selling brokers can be pretty pushy and I think you may need some other qualified representation on your side to structure the deal so you aren't dumping money on surveys over and over again.

 

[Eufaula]

Asking price 175K you should be able to negotiate way lower price than that. As for cost to operate, if the engines are tight meaning no white or black smoke after she warms up or bad leaks. Your yearly would be moorage and insurance. Outside of that it will be mostly cosmetics as to what you want to modify to your likeing. I bought my 38C an older one than you are looking at without a survey and I know I will probably be called nuts by the forum however, I knew the boat and the man that owned it for 22 years. I did all the ground work myself by looking with a bright flashlight. Took her to a boatyard undock and checked it out with the owner and close the deal. I knew what I wanted to change out and what is needed to be corrected in the engines. I just can not drop survey cost and engine survey and not close the deal due to many wrongs. But, as someone mentioned above you need a survey for the insurance unless, you can contact the present ins. agent and enable you to cont. with the insurance after you bought the boat.
James

 

[MikeP]

I'll join Sky on this one ...I don't think it's nuts to forego a survey IF you are comfortable with your ability to check things out AND it is not required for other purposes such as financing and insurance.

[CAUTION to readers - MikeP is stepping onto one of his largest soapboxes. Surveyors, please head to the nearest public shelter]

I think surveys are laughable. Yep, LAUGHABLE!

I have been through a fair number of boat surveys because I couldn't afford to pay cash for the boats in question. IN NO CASE did a surveyor EVER find anything I didn't find and IN EVERY CASE they failed to find things I found.

The things they didn't find include everything from improper wiring to improper fuel line materials to cockpit drains that drained into the bilge instead of overboard. Included in this were numerous items shown in the survey as working which actually didn't. How the heck does that happen? (Can you spell "boilerplate?") I could go on and on. Don't even get me started on the "moisture-meter" cr@p. Given the option, I would NEVER pay for a surveyor. But that's very much a personal decision. I have a beautifully prepared survey on our 53 with color pics and LOTS of words. It isn't worth the paper it's printed on let alone the 1200 bucks I had to spend to get it. He was a nice guy, though...

Engine surveys? Same thing; never had one, never will. They are not going to find anything that you cannot find IF you are mechanical and IF you are willing to do it. There are no secret engine problem symptoms that only surveyors know. Your ears, your nose, your eyes and a couple of fairly inexpensive instruments and the specs for the engines are all that is necessary.

As Sky mentioned, a lot of folks will undoubtedly disagree with the
no-survey sentiment. As I said, it is totally a personal decision but if I was a surveyor and failed to find the obvious and important items that they routinely miss, I'd fire myself!

The final point I'd make is that the boat is potentially YOUR boat. Who is the person most interested in ensuring everything is OK (or not), the surveyor or you? Some might argue that you could sue the surveyor if the boat blows up (or whatever) after you buy it. Yeah, you probably could but I'd rather determine for myself that the boat has or doesn't have a problem than go through THAT excercise and the associated PITA.

[Whew, he's getting off the box now... ]

 

[Captned]

 

[Angela]

I'm glad someone brought this up - what MikeP996 said about getting an official survey.... It's been on my mind, but I've been hesitant to throw this out here... Mike opened the door, so I'm going to walk through.

I have had similar surveyor experiences that Mike describes. When I bought my Cruisers, Inc. express cruiser a few years ago, the surveyor had Ed replacing every engine hose on the boat - when he got into the project with the hoses, he found there was nothing wrong with the hoses. What the surveyor didn't find was the busted structural bulkhead that cost me just under $10,000 to repair - Ed found that while crawling around in the bilge one day. TWO surveyors missed that! And that's just the highlight of that one - of all the "findings and critical corrections needed", none of them were problems at all, and in fact, the survery was wrong on all 7 items he said were critical. But my new engine hoses sure were pretty.

I have a 58MY under contract and have a lot of confidence in the boat following our personal inspection and sea trial last weekend. We've "surveyed" it to death ourselves, and when we do have a professional survey done, we end up telling the surveyor where to look and to be sure to make note of this and that....but, we always needed that survey for insurance purposes. This time, the boat was recently surveyed (October 2005), including haulout, by the owner before she put the boat on the market, and my insurer has accepted that survey and does not require me to get another one. So, it's really up to my discretion whether I throw another $1,000 at a survey that I seriously doubt will be of any real benefit. As thorough as Ed is, I just don't think a surveyor is going to find anything I don't already know, especially since we have the recent survey in hand. This boat is not a project boat with a long list of problems; she has been loved over the years with updates along the way. In fact, this is the first time we could not find any moisture penetration or soft spots in the decking anywhere, not even around the windlass. Even that ancient telephone intercom system worked flawlessly! I just can't image there is anything a hull surveyor would find, that we haven't, that would kill the deal anyway. If the recent survey didn't exist, well yes, I'd go ahead with a survey at this time, no question - I'd have to. But, we're toying with the idea of bailing on the hull survey since we have one in hand. We do, however, want to do haul out so we can inspect the underside for ourselves and inspect the running gear, etc. I do know she's due for bottom paint, cutlass bearings, and stuffing box maintenance which is the first thing I do with any boat I buy, anyway.

What I do want is an engine survey since I'm not as "DD knowledgeable" as a lot of you are. I think I will find that survey to be helpful to me. I don't have the expertise to evaluate those.

Ang

 

[Gina Marie]

Congradulations on the new venture. I have been a Hatteras owner for one year and I came from a 26 Boston Whaler with OB. I needed the Hatteras survey for two reasons: First I had no idea what I was getting into, if I had to replace the engines or tranmissions or a damaged hull or AC's were bad I used these to re bid the price to the owner. There's a difference if I said they were bad and the surveyor said they were bad. The second thing I used it for was a checklist of what to look for as furture projects. The third thing and must important is can I afford the repairs. I purchased my Gina Marie 1987 45C 45,000.00 less then asking price. That money was justified by the survey and the people wanting to get rid of the boat. I will warn you, you must that read the threads on maintenance in this forum. This is not your GW these boats need constant maintenance and you will need to be handy. In saying that, if you plan a reserve to get you through the initial maintenance you can enjoy enjoy enjoy. After one year and much replacing and updating we love our vessel and we would not think of doing it any other way.

The members on this forum and the help of not only Hatteras but Sams Marine you could not be in better hands. If its a Hatteras these people will solve the problem.

Good luck and enjoy and keep use posted with you progress you can also post pictures so we all can see her.

 

[nor'easter]

I had a similar experience to Gina Marie. This was a big jump for me, and I researched the heck out of it. I went with am engine survey because I was unfamiliar with diesels ....then, and to ensure they didn't need initial maintenance outside my budget.
I spent around 8 hours in 5 visits to the boat crawling through every space, opening hatches and access ports, and removing fishboxes. I brought a note pad into the ER and spent over an hour tracing elctrical, plumbing, waste lines looking for problems. The surveyor was a bit of a clown and came up with a shorter list than I did, but it was good for me for a couple of reasons. First, gave me some confidence in what I had already determined, and it also made me feel better that there was no major structural problem.
The sea trial was fantastic. The boat rode like a dream. My engines didn't turn the rpms to 2300, in fact they only turned to 2200. The DD mechanic was on board with his computer hooked up and assured me that it was not an engine problem. When it was hauled an hour later for survey, the bottom was covered in coral and other critters, and I took a leap of faith and signed off on the survey. Post cleaning and paint after purchase she turn 2350 with a full load and her 5B 32x47.5 wheels. I was (I can't tell how much!) exteremely anxious the first time I pushed the throttles all the way forward.
Pascoe has a 38 C review on his website www.yachtsurvey.com that you should review and print. He had one for my 39 SX and it helped me sort through the issues.
I agree with above that you should bargain on the price. After all the time I spent, I had estimates done on soft goods and electronics that needed to be replaced. The seller knw I was serious, and the boat was for sale over 18 months, so I bought it for significantly lower that the ask price.
Best of luck.

 

[Trojan]

If your not a good mechanic or not been around large boats or you don't know the boat and owner by all means get a survey. It will give you a piece of mind, a little mind insurance and a little bargaining power. Eventually you will need it for insurance or the bank. Surveys do not find everything and some of the things they find are ridiculous. I think the ridiculous ones are just paper fillers. Don't direct the surveyor. Take a friend who is a good wrench, look it over real close first. If you still like it. Then get a survey. That is what I have always done. Your going to have to have one sooner or later. Just don't waste your money on a boat that obviously has trouble. Look at it as many times as you can, but days apart. Each day you will have a different perspective. You will see something you missed the day before, something you like or dislike. Take notes each time. Never bring the past days notes with you unless they are notes to remind you of things to check. Then after many look throughs of your notes with someone who thinks they know boats. Make an educated guess as whether to survey, make offer or buy it. Just don't fall in love with it yet. If you do. Just throw this crap away and get a survey. It will be the only think that might save your wallet. Have fun! Take it slow. Good luck.



BILL

 

[ADaily3224]

Lots of people with different views use this site, that's what makes it great.

My 2 Cents.

First, you are a quality boat buyer, you already have a top line GW, so that sets you apart.
Now a Hatteras has your interest, same story, high on quality low on glitz.
The 1989 38 was the last small Hatteras model made, they called it a 39 into the 90's. You may want to check membership, someone who owns one will be interesting to talk to..
I can't offer any specific advise, maybe some general advise? Again it's pretty much all personal opinion. I have the predecessor to what you are looking at and can say it's a beautifully built, wonderfully finished boat. It would be very hard after owning a Hatteras to move to another brand, I've had three. There was a Bertram between the three Hatteras, I gave it a try but went right back. That in itself is a pretty good endorsement, but again it's one person's opinion. I would rather have the 38, like you are interested in. It's bigger, faster, more modern looking, it really has no draw backs or specific problems to be looking for that I know of. There is a web site with informal fairly opinionated sometimes caustic reviews.
www.yachtsurvey.com Someone else mentioned it too. Remember it's a person's opinion, and I have noticed no shortage of mistakes reading his reviews.
Some of the other questions you asked concerning costs really are better answered by people who own boats in your region. It's different everywhere. Going from a trailer boat to a big sport fish is a serious commitment to boating. Most people on this site view Hatteras ownership and part of their life, it's what they are about, it's what they are willing to spend many dollars on to support. If that's where you want to be, join the club.

As far as some of the other things discussed, surveyors, engine surveys, it's up to you, and your comfort level with the experience and knowledge you have. Every buying experience is different, some like to buy a fixer-up-er, others want to buy one that is perfect, Again, it's up to you. It's not necessarily less expensive buying the fix-er-up-er, in the long run you may win, but by the time you count your time, effort, it's probably a wash, but the knowledge you gain in the process is priceless. So, good luck, It's a fine choice, and personally I think the price is very fair, if it's nice. One last thing, there's always a lot of broker bashing on this site, there are some fine brokers out there that will save you money and make sure you don't make a mistake. They are also responsible for making sure you are delivered a clean ownership. Someone said "you will get the truth from the owner", I'm having a hard time with that one. Our automobile dealerships sell 6,000 vehicles a year and we take maybe 3,500 trades, and not one person has ever lied about their trade!

It's a fun time.
Tony D

 

[Maynard Rupp]

I feel the same way about surveyors as Mike does. I am an aircraft mechanic and a friend has a moisture meter. Up here the meters work IF the boat has been stored all winter and you are testing it in spring. If I was looking at a brand other than Hatteras, I would try to find someone knowledgable about that brand of boat. Very few Hats ever have serious structural issues such as seperated bulkheads that are hard to see. I guess the exception would be a hurricane salvage boat. I probably know more about engines and systems than most surveyors, but if I was involved with an engine I didn't know about, one of my pool of friends does. You must have a survey for insurance, but I haven't learned much from one.

 

[captddis]

I too am in the marine business and do my own surveys. But you will need a survey for insurance, and no ins co will accept a owners self conducted survey no matter how competent. So the best option is to survey before buying. It is easier to negotiate with a indepent survey in hand. I bought the 46 as is where is. I spent 2 days going over it. I hired a well regarded surveyor and told him that the bought was already a done deal and not to nit pick.He did a fair and complete survey, but did not find anything that i did not already know about.
Every year i run across someone who fell in love and bought without surveying and gets in over their head when problems are found. Just as a doctor will not treat a family member, it is good to have a disinterested person put their eyes on it also.

 

[REBrueckner]

Good advice above. A typical boat survey does not have the depth nor time that you can devote to visual inspection and test running every item on the boat. But it should reflect an expert's somewhat superficial inspection. As noted, you'll need one anyway for insurance. But an engine survey covers things not so easily determined nor often visible from the outside. I do boat surveys msyelf, rely on an experienced mechanic for engines.

The single biggest question I always ask: What speed (knots) do you usually cruise?....then later ask what RPM is usual cruise?....discrepancies often arise right here and should be resolved. Also a boat that does not turn up rated RPM at WOT may simply need the Morse controls adjusted. I'd walk away from a boat that is cruised at WOT..some owners just don't know, others don't care.

So here's an approach to consider: Inspect the boat yourself completely and take notes as you go. Test run everything. A full day is required. Next make an offer, discuss what did not work, and see if you can agree with the seller on an approximate price: make it clear that a boat survey and engine survey must be clean to support your offer. Then spend the money to get whatever surveys you require.

 

[REBrueckner]

Another thought: Ask the broker what offers have been received...what prices already rejected by the seller. A seller with a boat on the market only a few months MAY not be willing to negotiate.......reality may not have not yet set in..or could be desperate....See if the broker knows the owners circumstances...what price the owner is really looking for....

 

[SKYCHENEY]

So here's an approach to consider: Inspect the boat yourself completely and take notes as you go. Test run everything. A full day is required. Next make an offer, discuss what did not work, and see if you can agree with the seller on an approximate price: make it clear that a boat survey and engine survey must be clean to support your offer. Then spend the money to get whatever surveys you require.

This can be a problem. Just because you make it clear to the seller that you have to have a clean survey to support your offer, doesn't mean the seller will drop the price if the survey is not clean. So then you have spent a bunch of money on a survey only to either buy it anyway or walk away thousands poorer.

I think you need to agree on a price and also agree that the seller WILL pay to fix the items on the survey BEFORE you actually have her surveyed. This may or may not include a "not to exceed" figure.(this is probably a rare agreement and I doubt it will happen, but you can try). For example, if the seller is confident in the engines and he agrees to make the engines right following an engine survey, then go ahead and get the survey. But if he is not that confident, then you have your answer. Figure on overhauls and factor that into your price. At this point, don't waste your money on the engine survey. Many people pay for the survey and really get no benefit from it. They either buy the boat regardless of the info in the survey because they have fallen in love or are sick of looking or whatever, or they try to get some concessions.

You can get a good idea of what the IS before any surveys. Just find a reasonable price and figure that you ARE taking a risk. This risk MUST be factored into your offer. If you can get a price reduction from there, great, but don't count on it. I have seen sellers who are willing to deal and others who just get mad when you (and the surveyor) nit pick their baby.

 

[jim rosenthal]

Since you can't get insurance without a survey, and consequently you HAVE to have one, you might as well accept that you have to get one, and instead of the various complaints about how bad surveyors are (we had a thread a few months back trashing yacht brokers in which several entries were just about as fair and just about as informative ), why don't we give him some useful advice about the surveys, which at least in the case of the hull survey is inevitable, unless he's willing to do without insurance. Which we're not advocating... are we?

1) The survey is often of value as a negotiating tool. Get your own surveyor and make sure they come well recommended and SAMS or NAMS certified.

2) Make sure the surveyor takes his/her time and explains things to you. On both the hull and engine surveys. Expect them to be thorough, and expect to spend a lot of time with them.

3) Make sure that the deal is contingent on both of the surveys, and that the seller(s) are establishing that they are willing to negotiate based on the findings of the surveyors. If not, bag it. Why would you spend a couple of thousand dollars on surveys if they are just going to shrug and say "take it or leave it, dude"?

4) You can ask to see sample of previous surveys done by the surveyors in question. A good surveyor doesn't mind doing this. They should be proud of their work, and you should be comfortable with it. If not, go elsewhere.

Remember that one of the great things about Hatteras Yachts is that they are production boats. There are a lot of them- seven thousand or more in total, of which probably 95% are still out there running around on their own bottoms. (better than running around on someone else's bottom, right? )
So if this deal crashes, there's another one out there. Good luck.

 

[cjd]

Thanks to all that have replied and given me their input. I cant wait to get to the computer and see the responses. So much knowledge here. Alot of info to digest.

The 671 diesels are rated at 485 hp. Where can I get the specs on this and what should the rpms be at cruise. What speeds can I expect and fuel consumption at cruise. I here these engines are very reliable and they take alot of abuse. Are they as smokey and smelly as some say?

Being a home building contractor, I can do alot cosmedic stuff and interior remodeling but lack the mechanical knowledge with engines and transmissions, so I think a survey is in order. Does anyone know a good surveyor in the Baltimore/Annapolis MD. area

I plan take my time, to do a more detailed inspection myself and go from there. Take a friend and get a second opinion.

Are there any particuler defects I should be looking for with this model?

The dealer told me he had an offer in the 150's and was declined. I would be curious what the average sales price is for this model.

Thanks for all the advise. Keep it comming!
CJD