How about that shooting at the VA College ?

[Starman]

When I was a cop my first supervisor told me we will never stop the break ins from occuring, but when we come in from the midnight patrol, we had better have found all break ins and open doors and windows.

Same goes for these school shootings and other crimes.

We will never stop them. All we can do is react .

If we as a society adopted the policy of proactive enforcement that would end these type of crimes, then we would give up the freedoms and lifestyles our nation was founded on.

Two aspects of this that are tragic. The first is for the victims, their family and friends.

The second is people like Catherine Crier second guessing the police/college action during this very hectic and trying morning, and speaking so poorly of those who were in there doing the job most would never consider.


I am betting they ( reporters ) will be eating dirt come the next day or so when the findings of the crime scene(s) are realized.

 

[jlightonjr]

I am numb by this news, I can hardly wrap my head around it and it feels similar to me as the feeling I had after 9/11.

 

[Capt.Erich]

WARNING: After re-reading this I feel I should warn the reader of the right-wing political content of this post.


I was listening today to the press conference at VA Tech and couldn't help but be dumbfounded by the questions the press corps were asking the VT Pres., the VA State Trooper, and the rest of the folks. These idiots in the press were more interested in what the schools "ploicy and proceedure" for lock down were. One member of the press stated something to the effect that... "with 33 dead your policy obviously doesn't work". I couldn't believe that none of the press were interested in knowing who the shooter was and why he did it. They seemed more interested in pointing blame at the school and the police. How helpful is that?

It occured to me that one of the basic premices of humanity that modern Liberals fail to grasp is the fact that there are some people that are evil, cruel, immoral, and have no conscience. These are the people that don't care how many policies or laws are on the books. They are going to carry out their self-centered plans to the letter until one man with a weapon takes him out. Remember flight 92... they are Hero's.

Yes, I'm one of those knuckle draggin, gun tote'n, rugged individualist, Conservatives. I find it ironic that there was no mention of the fact that VA lawmakers had just passed a law the forbids anyone to carry a concealed weapon on the state campuses. That law did a lot of good for those poor souls that got killed.

OK... I'm off my soapbox and getting another beer. Sorry for the rant.

Cheers and May God bless the families of those killed and injured at VA Tech.

 

[Genesis]

"Must issue" concealed carry, and yes, that includes on college campuses.

This way people like the shooter get one, maybe two caps off before new holes start appearing in their bodies on an almost-magical basis.

End of problem.

 

[jim rosenthal]

One of the features of the Sandbar is that it was created to provide a place for exchange of views on non-boating topics. With that in mind, I am going to post the following:

One of my colleagues' children attends Virginia Tech. She is a senior. After an incident last year in which an escaped convict killed at least one person, the university installed a system to broadcast a campus-wide warning to take shelter. The students were also required to practice this drill and to be aware of the existence of the warning system, to know where to take cover, and to pay attention if the alarms were sounded. This was done to protect the university community in case another threat occurred.

The criticisms of the university which have already begun to occur (and rightly so in my opinion) center around the fact that the university police were aware that two people had been shot to death and nevertheless did not lock down the university, following their own protocol. Clearly, with a killer loose and bent on mayhem, more people were likely to die. However, there is a high probability that fewer people would have been shot and that the police would have had a better chance to shoot the killer. I think the parents and families of those people who died or were injured have the right to ask why the university did not follow its own rules for this kind of emergency. I also think that in a country with a relatively open press, the press have the right to ask the same questions as well.

I am not a great fan of journalists and the media. I have personally been damaged by statements made that were not true, with no retractions offered and no apologies either. However, an open and untidy press which makes frequent mistakes is what we have, and it is better than the kinds of regulated media they have in other countries, at which we laughed for decades. I don't like everything they say, but I do value their right to say it. And in this case, I think they are right.

My political views are quite far to the left of most of the folks on this forum. However, my views on the number of guns in this country stem not from politics but from a career in emergency medicine. Countries that are awash in firearms are also plagued by firearm related injuries. Countries where the gun count is quite a bit lower have far fewer of those injuries. Given the tendency of human beings to act in impulsive and irrational ways, and given the fact that that tendency seems to be getting worse and not better, we would all be much better off with far fewer guns in this country and all others as well. This will not be a popular view point on this forum, and I am sure will draw critical posts, but a lifetime in my job has taught me plenty about these issues.

 

[Rickysa]

Dr. Jim,

Agreeing to disagree is a wonderful thing....I respect you for your opinion and can clearly understand where you are coming from.

I, however, feel that the proper decisions were made...support for which was given during the latest news conference and seems to be the way the debate is turning.

Having spent 11 years as a student at a small town university (that I really don't feel like I have ever left) , I can't begin to imagine what something like this is doing to the university community. My first reaction was abject rage and a wish that every student had been packing and plugged Cho deader than dead...or that SWAT teams would have been already deployed to intercept that maggot before 32 people could have been killed.

Today, I don't believe anything could have been done...future developments will surely tell...(still a chance it was two shooters???)

Rick

 

[SKYCHENEY]

No matter how you look at incidents such as this, there is only one way to stop them once they occur. And that is to meet the force of the shooter with at least equal force. This force was not available on this college campus without calling it in from law enforcement. Had someone or several other people been carrying a gun, the shooter could have been stopped before some of these people were hurt or killed. This would not have prevented this from happening, but it surely would have lessened the damage.

Also, once these type of shooters realize that they may be met with force at any time from anyone, they may think twice about going ahead with these types of actions in the first place.

I know it's easy to second guess and question the way things were handled, but it says a great deal that the cities with the most violent crime also have the most strict gun control laws. I feel for those victims and their friends and families and I wish someone could have been there too help before it went this far. Maybe someday our society will wise up and learn to protect themselves.

 

[Genesis]

Here's a few inconvenient facts - I'll leave out my opinions (I've already voiced 'em)

1. In each and every case where "must issue" concealed carry has been passed, both violent and property crime has declined precipitously following the passage of those laws. Every time. If "tighter restrictions on guns" was a solution to this problem, you'd be able to find one example where "must issue" would have led to an increase in crime rate. Fact is, it hasn't happened and there is now 20+ years of history on this.

2. To those who think we can "just go ban the guns" - consider how well this works with drugs, and how much easier it is to smuggle some pieces of metal that don't have an odor (doggies are worthless to "sniff 'em out"), can be made easily, and can be shipped in pieces and then assembled.

3. Once a person decides to commit murder, the additional penalty for unlawful use of a firearm is no deterrent at all. After all, you can't imprison someone for life more than once, nor can you execute them more than once. Therefore, once you decide to commit murder, all the other crimes you commit in the process are "free" from a penalty standpoint.

None of the above facts can be disputed.

Formulate policy in light of facts and pray for the deceased, their friends and families.

 

[Bob Bradley]

No matter what your politics are, with respect to this issue, pray for the victims, their families, and their fellow students and professors.

 

[kwerges]

"An armed society is a polite society." Nuff said...

 

[Capt.Erich]

I listened to Bill Bennett this morning as he reacounted the life and and last moments of a professor who was killed at V. Tech. I can't remember his name but he was born a Romanian Jew and survived the horrors of the Nazi concentration camps and the subsequent commuist take over of Romania. After many years, he finally made his way to Isreal and then to the US only to be gunned down by a kid from Korea on a student visa. He was attempting to get his students out of the building. He was a true hero.

 

[ljcrain]

I have been puting off getting a conceal carry permit just because I hate to think of what it would be like to actually shoot someone. I guess I got that from my father who was in the Infantry in europe in WWII. While he had guns and hunted occasionally he almost always missed. I think it wasn't due to poor marksmanship but simply that he didn't want to kill anything else.

On the other hand, everytime something like this happens I think I better get one before the next nutball goes crazy rather than after.

I am just very thankful that I live in the great state of Texas where you can actually shoot and kill someone who attacks you or your property and the police will congratulate you rather than throw you in jail and try to convict you like in some other states.

When I lived in Irving, near Dallas for a few years 15 years ago (way too far from saltwater) there was an incident which illustrated this perfectly. A man one day picked his rather large handgun up from a gun shop in the mall (see what I mean about how great this state is!). On his way out ther was a woman standing there. A car drove up and her estranged boyfriend got out, walked up to her and shot her dead, then walked back to his car to drive off. This man calmly loaded his gun and shot the assailant through his car door killing him. Since he wasn't on his own property the DA sent the case to the grand jury where they quickly no-billed him.

In some other states that hero would probably still be in jail.

 

[StratPlan61]

It is a very sad event for all of us. It is unfortunate so many 'nuts' lash out at our world and destroy things we all hold precious. I don't believe legislation or more laws would be helpful at all. This was yet another case of illegal guns being misused. Sure, we could outlaw guns - but then just the bad guys would have them. We can't outlaw motorcycles, or cigarettes or alcohol or electric saws or all of the other things people misuse and cause themselves and others injury or death. The root cause is the person's behavior - and if we did outlaw everything I cited, someone would bludgeon someone with a hammer and we'd be right back where we started!
Even with all of our present laws, and supporting scientific studies, only slightly more than 60% of the people actually wear their seatbelts. I understand the Dr.'s opinion is based on the terrible injuries and deaths he has observed in the ER - I too spent a career seeing horrible results - of socieities where only the bad guys have guns and the good guys are held captive. Every one of those terrible places I went - guess what? - no Hatterases, no freedom, no liberty, no free speech, no free press, etc.
My prayers go out to all of those victims and families.

Bear'
1984 61' MY Strategic Plan

 

[hunshatt]

Jim, I understand your statistics and they make sence. If you have guns there will be gun injuries/deaths. What are the statictics for violent acts/killings, irrespective of the tool used to inflict them? And how would you catogorize them?? Like the "exuburent" youth in the French slums that lit that country up for weeks? I think there were a number of deaths during that "protest" or the unrulely soccer fans, or the ??????(list goes on and on)
I'm not trying to be a dick, but seems "old " europe has plenty of it's own violent tendencise. As far as "new europe", Baznia, Chetnia heck even that little set to in the russian theator where how many were killed by both the "radicals" and the responce team. (my spelling sucks, but hopefully not my understanding of world politics)
Plenty of killings going on everyplace i read about. And many/most have draconian gun laws(at least from my gun safe full of firearms perspective)

 

[Starman]

The way I understand what happened is this:

The shooter went to a dorm and killed two people. He then left and was walking across campus when the police arrived. From the info they received, it was thought he left campus and was leaving the state ( escaping ).


It was asked why this person was not seen walking across campus and stopped ? This is a prime example of today's news reporters.

Well come on folks, what is so suspicious about a 20 year old on a college campus walking ? Was he waving the guns in the air shouting I just killed two people ? Get real !!!


It is my understanding that this college covers some 28 acres and there were maybe 9,000 students on campus and that includes about every single spot/building/parking lot/ bathroom, admin office/ sports field/ ect........

There were about 14000 in route to the campus according to the VP as classes rotated through the day.

So can some one please tell me how a campus can be locked down ? How many campus police would this have taken ? A few hundred ?

Is there a loud speaker system in place for this ?



It is so damn easy to put blame on the very people who do their best to protect us, and our children, especially when the gunman takes his own life. And pointing a finger at a deadman gives no gratification.



Crimes like this will happen again. There is no solution, unless we want to give up all the freedoms our country was founded on.


What we need to do is offer support to those that obviously have the courage to wear the badges of honor that the rest of the world shys away from.

 

[Starman]

Dr. Jim,

Your thoughts and being able to express them is cool. How boring would it be if we all agreed on everything ?

With that in mind, I am going to pen a few thoughts that might draw some heavy fire, but here goes. ( ya'll be easy on me please )


On WGNI radio this morning , out of Wilmington NC, Craig and Kitty were speaking about how everyone was blaming the wrong people for what happened. Then the subject turned towards the counseling that was made available to those that needed it.

We see this everyday. I can not tell how many times the counseling team has been activated in this school system where I live, but it is a lot.


Same as in VA. Big news about the counselors being made available to those in need.

Yes there are students/family members/faculty that had close friends die, or saw them die, and talking does help. But really, I think this counseling thing is about as ludicrous as the "save the feral cats organizations ".

I think this is done because we have become a weak society and want to hear about all this help being offered. it makes us feel so warm and fuzzy inside knowing our kids can go speak to some one because they were so terrified about a crime that happened in the same area, even though they did not see it, hear it, or even know anyone hurt, killed or involved.

What does it say of us when we raise a society that has become expertly proficient on computers at age 10, but cannot read or write and do long hand math without a calculator and still graduate high school. What does it say when this society we are raising are more skilled at purchasing drugs and alcohol underage, than filling out a job application ?

What does it say of this same society we are raising , that is so used to crime, drugs, weapons, sex, and lack the literary skills needed to make something of themselves, must see a these counselors or they will be ruined for life by the tormenting thoughts of what has transpired ?


What does it say of this society we are raising when it is us, that speak of how we were brought to the front of the class room, made to bend over , grab our ankles and got the paddle from a teacher and speak of how that discipline was good for us, and then tell those in education they better not lay a hand on my child or criminal charges will be brought forth.

But they better get the counselors there because my child was on the same campus when a crime occurred, or a friend died in a car wreck off campus, or a teacher had a heart attack......or those damn Feral cats are being trapped and taken to the pound !

 

[Avenger]

To be fair, I believe Dr. Jim's experiences reflect a skewed sample of the population. Since he works in an ER in a high crime area (no?) he sees a disproportionate number of these incidents. In a similar fashion, I have some friends in law enforcement, and I have see how their views changed from the time when they weren't police officers to the present. Most of them have developed a mentality that there are cops, bad guys, and bad guys who haven't been caught yet. I think it comes from being constantly exposed to the bottom of the societal barrel.

So, while I can certainly understand his perspective. I still believe that if we cannot ultimately fix the underlying societal and cultural problems, we will not make anybody safer by passing unenforceable laws and removing our constitutional freedoms.

Wow, that almost sounded articulate.

 

[captddis]

Last I heard was that NO guns were legal in Washington DC, They also had the highest murder rate. Maybe it is not the gun , but the lowest element of society that does not value human or other life.

 

[jim rosenthal]

A couple of things (and may I express also my appreciation for the differing views expressed in a civil way):

According to my colleague Dr Maclay, whose daughter attends VT, a campus-wide warning system with loudspeakers and sound trucks WAS installed and drills were held. Why they didn't activate that is the mystery to me.

I don't know what the figures are on the percent of gun crimes that are committed using legitimately-acquired versus illegitimately-acquired guns. The guns in this case were evidently bought OTC by someone who had a legal right to buy them.

We are members of, and live within, a species that is notable for both its ability to commit irrational acts. We can't arm everyone- the law also guarantees your right NOT to carry a gun if you don't want to, if I am not mistaken. We also can't protect ourselves and each other- this was clear even before yesterday. What we have is a society awash in firearms and a very high death rate from firearms as well. We also have an intense debate about what to do with a situation that we all acknowledge is problematic. The problem is also this: you can't have both more and less guns. It's one or the other, it seems to me. Everyone looks at and interprets the data to support their point of view. My point of view is that having this many guns around makes us all less safe, not safer.

It's interesting- everyone complains about the fact that we have too many lawyers around (til they need one, anyway) and a lot of folks think that having fewer lawyers around would reduce the number of lawsuits. This line of reasoning doesn't seem to apply to guns, though.

Incidentally, I used to be a proponent of gun ownership. My views have changed over the years on a lot of things; on some, I've moved to the right, on some to the left. On this, I guess, I've moved to the left.

 

[Walter P]

Throughout the history of mankind there have been the debates between the hawks and the doves. Remember the line about beating your swords into plowshears? Guess what - it has NEvER worked. In just about all totalatarian regimes one of the first things necessary to gain total power is to take away the rights of the citizens.

Dr. Jim, I respect you and most of your opinions but on this issue I must respectfully disagree with you. Unfortunately you do get to see, first hand the carnage caused by stupidity, ignorance and just plain evil. Do not consider the majority to fall into these catagorys. The facts speak for themselves in that as stated above, states where the population is legally armed with "shall issue" gun laws, the violent crime rate drops substantially. The opposite is also the case - cities/states where the most restrictive gun laws are in effect for some reason also have the most crime. As far as Europe is concerned please consider that the Swiss actually require an armed civilian population and still manage to have one of the lowest violent crime rates in the World. The same applies to Israel.

Unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world, but I believe that our problems are not caused by the availability of weapons, but by social issues that for whatever reasons never seem to be adequately addressed. If I were certain that giving up my right granted to me by the 2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, I would be at the head of the line with a few sacks of guns to be destroyed. I may be crazy but I'm not stupid. Humans are nasty critters by nature, especially when the chips are down - witness Katrina.

Walt