Hatteras New Models?

[jim rosenthal]

But why would anyone buy a new 1980s Hatteras yacht when for a lot less money you can buy a 1980s Hatteras yacht and have it completely refit to new? Obviously there's a market for this kind of work, because it's what Slane Marine does and has done for years.

Don't get me wrong- I love these boats, too, and especially the older designs that Tony and Scott are talking about. But until someone steps up and asks the company to actually do this- build a new edition of an older boat- you can easily see why they wouldn't do it on spec. If no one bought it, they would just have a new old boat hanging around the plant.

Roger, if they built, for example, a new 1990 45 Series II convertible, with modern engines and updates to the ships systems, what would it cost, do you think? (also, would the older molds be usable for modern resin-infusing technology? because the way them build boats now isn't the same as what they did in 1990, from what I understand)

My guess is that a new 1990 45C would cost 1.5 to 2 million dollars. I am curious to see whether I am right. I have not looked at prices of new comparable boats, but I am going to do so now.

 

[jim rosenthal]

As nearly as I can determine, the list price of a new 46 Viking is 1.4+ million. And this is a boat that is already in production, which is not the same thing as re-engineering an older model, if they have the molds still around.

You can buy a 1990 45 Series II convertible for, say, 150-200K. Even if you completely stripped the boat to the bare hull, and rebuilt it totally from the keel to the flying bridge, you would be hard pressed to spend a million dollars. And even if you DID spend a million dollars, you would STILL be under what I think would be the cost of building a brand-new 1990 model from scratch using the old design.

A few years ago, Hatteras advertised that they wanted to do refits of their older boats in the Hatteras yard. Perhaps what they ought to do is buy back solid examples of their older boats and completely refit them and sell them with a factory warranty. Or they could do the logical thing and just ask Slane Marine to do it for them, since they have more experience than anyone else doing this, and sell THOSE boats with a factory warranty....rebuilding an older boat is not the same thing as building a new one from scratch.

 

[Pascal]

Guys you know I worked at Hatteras for 37 years of my life and I still love the place. I read all of your threads but no group of vintage owners has gotten together and gone to Hatteras with checks in hand and said here is what we want. Money talks louder than words. Try getting some of you together with some money and see if they do not listen to you then. I really wish you would. Hatteras is a great company. Employees love to build boats but they need you to spend your money with them to be able to build boats.

Roger

You are right about owners of older boats not being customers but I have met many customers (either serious buyers or charter guests) who have to turn to other brands because hatteras doesn't build the kind of MY they want.

Actually, two days ago we were in the tender returning to the boat at Staniel Cay when we passed by a charter 70ish hatt MY named temptation, I think she is a 02 or 03. Our guest who had booked the charter pointed out to the hatt and laughed saying she was glad she had not picked that boat for her trip because of the lack of as ft deck, small platform and no portholes in the forward SR. This was not the first time charter guests have told me they considered booking a Hatteras MY but picked us because of our aft deck.

I have assisted a number of owners in selecting and buying boats in the 60/80 range and most of the time they wouldn't even look at a new or late model hatt MY because they are "old people" or "skin cancer survivor" boats to use the words I have heard. Great saloon, big interior spaces, but not enough outside space especially aft deck.

Back to your point... Yes vintage hatt owners are not very important to hatteras except for one thing: ask owners where they spend most of their time and the answer is the aft deck.

Ferretti, azMutt, fairline, and especially Lazzara get that. Hatteras doesn't. This is why you see so few late model hatteras MY and so many of the others.

 

[Boatnut]

You hit the nail squarely on the head Roger, money talks, bs walks. Lots of talk from people who aren't about to buy a boat hardly draws attention.

 

[jim rosenthal]

"old people".... oooh, that hurts. And Eric just told me I wasn't old.

 

[fissioneng]

It comes down to one of two things:

1. Hatteras has done the market research on this (small MYs) and determined the market is too small to build a boat
2. Hatteras hasn't done the market research

Hatteras probably won't divulge details about this, so the discussion goes on.

How many orders would they need to build a boat? 5? 10? 20? 50?

 

[season]

Marlow are a smart outfit- they own their own yard in mainland China, they make all their own hardware in house, etc. They have the economies of scale to do pretty much anything they want. And the man with his name on the building is an adventurous sort who likes pushing the envelope.

You know, I didn't think of this until now, but Hatteras still owns all the drawings and the molds for all those forty-plus foot boats. The molds are out there someplace unless they were cut up. They are probably still at the HP location unless Hatteras sold the original plant. So if they wanted to build an updated 45C they could probably do it without much difficulty. I just don't think they are interested to do it.

Years ago, for the 25th anniversary of the Bertram 31, Bertram Yachts built a limited run of updated 31s, using the original molds. I've seen a few of them out there. Anything's possible if someone wants it badly enough. But I don't think the market or the company desire is there- no offense to you, Tony.

Jim, if you go on google earth and look close at the Hatteras factory you can see several old molds out in the woods behind the buildings.

 

[Nightingale]

So here's a criticism then, why is it that whenever a boat is posted on here that is completely refit (not talking about lipstick on a pig) with all updated electronics, heads, rebuilt engines, paint, interior, wiring, running gear, etc. they are jumped all over saying it's only worth what a dilapidated stock boat is worth. This obviously depends on the quality of the refit but this thread goes against most on this boards prior mentality.

 

[Fanfare]

If something happened to Fanfare I would put a new comparable-sized modern Hattteras motor yacht at the head of my list. If Hatteras doesn't make one I would then consider a refit of another 50MY or a 53MY. Probably not much bigger, although at age 70 next month I am already considering how long my wife and I can operate a boat alone. I hate the thought of crew, moreover, there is no room for them on a 50MY. Having owned Fanfare since new, in January of 1966, I have found that she is so superbly built that I have not needed or wanted another boat. Of course she has had continuous maintenance and upgrades for her whole life. Many of these upgrades are tiny tweaks which are not readily apparent, but involving in the aggregate substantial sums of money. I (speaking for my heirs) don't expect to recoup all this money at sale. My boat is not an investment--it's a hobby, a refuge, and perhaps the equivalent of a vacation home rental. It's money spent for what I regard as a worthy purpose. All my children, their spouses and all my grandchildren want to be down here together for spring break in the Bahamas, starting Saturday. My kids all seem to want their children to experience the same cruising activities that they had in their childhood. This is worth a lot more than money.

 

[capttonyf]

You hit the nail squarely on the head Roger, money talks, bs walks. Lots of talk from people who aren't about to buy a boat hardly draws attention.

I agree, money talks and BS walks and I personally am not in a position in my life with two young children to buy a new boat BUT, I do know people that are.

I believe there is a market for it as well, Look how many 40 to 50 boats are selling each year from Sea Ray, Marlow, Azimut, Tiara, Martimo, Carver, Grand Banks, Mochi Craft, East Bay, Marqui, Silverton, Riviera, Henriques, Ferretti, Fairline, Hinckley, Nordhavn, Viking, Princess etc I could go on and on. The point is "If You Build Them They Will Come". Viking SOLD 4 Boats under 50Ft At The Miami Show, How many did Hatteras sell under 50Ft., Drum Roll Please,,,,, Zero, because they Don't Build Any.

I Love Hatteras and what they're capable of doing but when did they become a company to proud to build normal sized boats. Was it when Brunswick made business decisions based off the Bottom Line and took the decision making out of the people hands who know, "the factory People" I think Hatteras sat too long in the mid to late 90's Milking the old designs with their slower, over built thirsty 43C and 46C and lost that piece of the market to Viking who were building Faster, Roomier newly designed Boats and they just never recovered and gave up rather than implimenting some of the newer building methods of companies like Viking. They also sat on those models hoping for the best without offering anything new and updated with new floor plans and slight design changes. Viking came out with new models every year Hatteras tried to ride out their NAME with No new designs. Hatteras's only New design in years was the 2002 54C before that they were riding the wave of design from 1987 with the 65C, 1991 with the 50C, 1991 with the 54C, 55C, and 60C which are essentially all the same boat. The 54 and 55C are excactly the same except for a transom fish box and new bridge styling, and the 60 was just a strechted version of the same mold with a few tweaks. And lets not foget the 58C which was Deeper, Slower, Thirstier and had less room than the 65C. Granted the 65C was one of the best designs of all time but the 58C wasn't even in the same ball park. And the Motoryachts,,, they were all pretty much the same as well from the engine room froward. Nothing new, barely a tweak, No wonder people moved on. It's like throwing new siding on an old house and telling everyone it's new.

Jim, I get what you mean about buying an older boat and refit it for less money. Like we've dicussed before I may repower ours one day when the motors wear out if nothing else better is being built, but. Thats for an expierienced boater with a true passion for yachts and not just being on the water. That will enjoy visiting a boat yard weekly for up to a year, making major decisions about what, and what not to do to create the perfect boat for them. All the while their family stands by waitng with their mask and flippers on, Fishing Poles in hand asking dad when is the boat going to be ready. There are people who when they get the urge to buy a boat want to walk into the dealer or a Boat Show and buy a boat thats ready to go and not have to wait and manage a yard project while trying to run their business. The wife and kids say, Honey I know you want a 48Ft. Hatteras MY But, The kids and I want to boat this season not Maybe Next Year and lose your free time with us in the process. Lets just buy that Ferretti or Sea Ray we liked.

We all could go round and round with this, I would just like to see a quality American builder like Viking or Hatteras build new updated designs or models that were so well liked in the past. Normal sized Convertibles "Viking Does, and they Sell" and Motor Yachts that a family can enjoy without a full crew.

For Hatteras to put together a full line of boats starting around 42ft like they've had in the past I think would be benificial for the company, that it would create a buzz. Now I Understand that profit margins are not there on smaller quality boats but it creates a new customer base of clients that will possibly grow into larger boats over time.

Again this isn't out of current need it's just I do care about what happens to Hatteras Yachts and would like to see them get back to where they once were, as a Full Line Premiere Builder.

 

[jim rosenthal]

Right. I think what did this in was their acquisition of Cabo. I mean, wouldn't they be competing against themselves if they built convertibles under 54 feet? Now, MYs, that may be another story.

 

[capttonyf]

I agree, but usually when a big company buys out another they put there own flare to the design and give it their name. Pacemaker/Egg Harbor, or Uniflight/Chris Craft etc.

Where do you think there is more up side? To bring Cabo Buyers into the entry level Sportfish market and grow them to a boat size they don't build. Then after years of telling them how great Cabo is through their first 2 or 3 boats and building their familiararity with the Systems and Electrical Panels, Pluming and Hardware Components to tell them now you have to switch Brands and all your little parts and tools you've aquired through the years may not work on your new Hatteras. Or would the up side be better to re-tool some of those Cabo designs to give them more of the Hatteras look, Rub Rail, Compnonets, Hardware etc. and put the Hatteras Name on it and disolve Cabo.

Where would you maintain better Loyalty? Forcing a Brand switch of an exisiting customer or just moving them up. If a Cabo owner hits the 52ft limit and has to switch Brands he may look at other companies since he has to switch anyway. Why not look? But if he has a brand he can start and grow with and he's comfortable with you have a better chance of keeping him in the Brand.

As anyone who has owned a boat knows you end up with spares of things that will only work on that brand and if you switch what do you do with them. With our 33 Tiara we have an entirely different set of parts boxes that won't work with the Hatteras and Vice Versa. So as a Cabo owner, when you move up your forced to give away lots of things that would have worked if you moved up within the same brand.

Granted it's a wild comparison but car dealers do it, they get you in to an entry level car, you learn their layout of switches and ways of operation, their sevice department and when your in there for an oil change the salesman shows you the newer version and talks about the loyalty trade in cash and you leave with a new car instead of a new oil change, because thats what your familiar with.

Look how we all love these boats, most of us probably started as kids on a Hatteras and what do we now have, a Hatteras, because thats what our memories are of. Now if dad owned a Viking as a kid, or a Bertram as a kid, so long as there was never some major issue or a Super Dupper Great deal on another quality Brand, chances are you will own a Viking some day because thats what you grew up on and you trust it. Hatteras is going to lose out on a whole generation of buyers, owners kids that are growing up 45 Vikings, Sea Rays, Cabo's, Ocean Yachts, Riviera's etc that when they start a family and want a boat one day they won't be looking at Hatteras because it's not what they grew up on, what there memories are of, and if they did like my kids are doing now, will there even be a Normal sized 40 to 50ft Hatteras Around to buy if they want it someday? A few I'm sure, but it will be slim pickens.

 

[rwetherington]

Well with all said. I still did not get anyone to say they wanted to take out there check book and go talk to Hatteras about a new design. But wait there may be brighter days coming. If anyone would ever like to spend a weekend on there boat talking to me about this. Please stop by New Bern on your way North and South. I really like meeting the vintage customers.

 

[jim rosenthal]

I would love to do that, and might just come down there by car to get the tour etc. But I don't know how many of us vintage customers are ever going to be able to buy a new boat in any of these size ranges. Of course, used boats were all new at one time, and the supply of used Hatteras yachts will dry up at some point, although probably not in my lifetime, so maybe keeping owners yet to be born in mind isn't such a bad idea...

 

[nor'easter]

Just looked at the cabo site. Express models only now at 36, 40,44, 52. No more convertibles.

 

[Nightingale]

I know at least 3 people who would trade their completely refit classic Hatts for a new version of their boats almost without question.

The main reason they haven't is the styling of the newer boats, both interior and exterior. This comment mostly applies to the Motor Yachts since the convertibles still have a classic styling to them.

 

[Pascal]

Results speak for themselves...

Visit any marina and see what kind of boats you see in the 50-80 range hatteras once dominated. Most of the time you will see more classic Hatteras (say pre 1999) than later models but worst, you will see many more lazzaras, ferretis, mutts, fairlines, Viking-princesses and the like than modern hatteras.

In the past week here in the Bahamas, I have only seen a single 2000+ hatteras MY.

So obviously people are lining up elsewhere with their check books....

 

[MikeP]

"I know at least 3 people who would trade their completely refit classic Hatts for a new version of their boats almost without question. "

If by "trade," you mean I give them my 53 and they give me a new boat, SURE, I'd do that in a heartbeat. But since a new Hatteras 53 would probably cost at least 1.5+ million bucks, I don't see most of us here being able to do that. Frankly the same was true when my 1980 53MY was new. There was no way I could have purchased a new one then any more than I could purchase a new one now (if it existed).

If we could actually afford a new boat in the size range we'd like, we'd HAVE a new boat, not a 1980 53MY!

 

[Nightingale]

I meant trade, as in trade in towards the purchase of a new one at a dealership. Not a straight trade. Definitely not everyone can afford this, but the few that can would do so.

 

[MikeP]

There are several current boats in the 50-60 ft range that I would trade in my 53MY, on right now if I could afford the rest of the price. I don't have any particular interest in seeing Hatteras make one though I suppose if they did I would give it a bit of an initial preference but only a bit.

We looked at a 55 at the Annapolis Boat show two years ago (can't recall the brand) that I would have loved to own but again, way beyond our means.