Got AC but no heat

[Angela]

I know Yellow Springs well. It truly is a place that is stopped in time - stuck in the 60s, complete with VW "magic buses" and Beetle Bugs in abundance. It's a neat place to people watch.

 

[nyrussell]

Noel, That'd make her one of the beautiful people then. Yellow Springs is where the hippies and flower children live.

True, however neither of us truly qualify as Hippies are flower children. Though some of our friends definitely do. Some of our friends are also on the other side as well. Funny thing is, Yellow Springs is thriving, while some other towns in Ohio are not .

 

[Angela]

So, getting back to this.....now that I have my unit back and can troubleshoot it...

I got my condensing unit back from the factory. I had taken it over there to have a new valve put on. Pascal came over Wednesday evening and bullied the thing back up onto the shelf in the ER, followed by his comment of "that is a ridiculous way to install that", and I agree, but that's the way Hatt did it - it's all original. Today, I wanted to get the wires hooked back up, pull a vacuum on it and refill it so spcoolin could tell me why it won't heat and why the condensing unit sometimes forget to come back on.

So, I open up the electrical box on it, and damn if someone at the factory didn't cut one of the large black wires off, in two places, remove it, and then wire-tie and black tape all the wires back together in a bunch. How do I know??? Because Ed took detailed photographs of it before removing it so that we would have a road map to confirm how it went back together. There was no reason for anyone to open that box just to replace a valve. I wonder if they wanted to make sure this 30-year-old unit would never run again and that I'd just have to buy a new one.

I have the worst luck with marine AC issues. It's always something.

 

[spcoolin]

So, getting back to this.....now that I have my unit back and can troubleshoot it...

I got my condensing unit back from the factory. I had taken it over there to have a new valve put on. Pascal came over Wednesday evening and bullied the thing back up onto the shelf in the ER, followed by his comment of "that is a ridiculous way to install that", and I agree, but that's the way Hatt did it - it's all original. Today, I wanted to get the wires hooked back up, pull a vacuum on it and refill it so spcoolin could tell me why it won't heat and why the condensing unit sometimes forget to come back on.

So, I open up the electrical box on it, and damn if someone at the factory didn't cut one of the large black wires off, in two places, remove it, and then wire-tie and black tape all the wires back together in a bunch. How do I know??? Because Ed took detailed photographs of it before removing it so that we would have a road map to confirm how it went back together. There was no reason for anyone to open that box just to replace a valve. I wonder if they wanted to make sure this 30-year-old unit would never run again and that I'd just have to buy a new one.

I have the worst luck with marine AC issues. It's always something.

Ang~

What valve did they replace ?...Was it the Reversing Valve or just a Service Valve where you add refrigerant ?
If it was the Reversing Valve...The old wire & connector for the reversing valve coil had to be replaced...The new ones are different size and won't allow the old plug to connect...

Can you post pictures ?

Steve~

 

[Angela]

It was just the service valve. The more I look at this the more I am screaming "WTF????"!!! Somebody there cut the two black wires off, removed the ring connectors from the end, wrapped them up in black tape, buried them behind the masses of wires, then black taped all of the wires together, and then put a wire tie on the bundle. The two black wires go out the left side of the box (as you stand there and look at it, and go back to what might be a pressure switch.

Here's where they go back: One goes to the blue screw on the left side of the terminal block, and the other goes to the black cube thing at the top right side of the box. Does it matter which wire goes goes to these two places? They both come from the same apparatus that is located outside of the electrical box, sort of behind it and to the left - between the box and the compressor. I'll label my photos "old" and "new". Old is what I want to go back to!

In the "new" photos - the black wires kind of look like they go to something, but they don't. They just make a loop over in the area to the right and then come back into the taped up bundle. I've aready cut the tape off, pulled them out, and wired up all the red/yellow wires. Thanks

 

[Angela]

The "new" photo is the last one - the one on the bottom, above.

Here is what those two black wires go to - the square thing sort of behind and off to the left of the round thing. Look to the left of the round thing - sorry, I don't know all the pieces/parts, only how it's supposed to run! Electricity is not my forte.

 

[spcoolin]

The "new" photo is the last one - the one on the bottom, above.

Here is what those two black wires go to - the square thing sort of behind and off to the left of the round thing. Look to the left of the round thing - sorry, I don't know all the pieces/parts, only how it's supposed to run! Electricity is not my forte.

The blue connection is the reversing valve connection (the other black wire goes to line 2)

What you are describing is the Reversing Valve & it's electromagnetic coil that pulls it's internal slide the opposite direction for heat...The reversing valve is what makes a A/C unit "reverse cycle" & a "heat pump"...Without it, or it being operational...No Heat.

Steve~

 

[spcoolin]

Ang~

There may be reason why they cut that loose such as the valve is sticking...
Did someone contact you about it...I do find it odd that you were not told of this...
When you say you sent it to the factory...where exactly...That unit was built in Richmond Va...That's a long way to send that unit...
Did you have a contact that was dealing with this for you or did you handle it all yourself ?

I would find out from whomever is responsable before connecting it back...you could end up with no cooling as well as no heat if that valve sticks.

Steve~

 

[Angela]

I never mentioned anything to anyone about the reversing valve. It wasn't sticking, and when I pulled this out, all I was trying to do was cool. The reversing valve was never in play. Thus, I have NO IDEA why anyone would have disconnected the reversing valve, AND never metioned it to me when I went to pick it up. I took it to a local competitor's factory; frankly, after all the hassles I've gone through with CruisAir on the new unit, having to have replaced it twice, I have no faith in CA anymore so I didn't want to take it back to them - all they want to say is "it's old, you need a new one."

All I needed was a supply/service valve. The tip broke off when trying to check the pressures last.

My "no heat" issue arose when the unit, when calling for heat, would not run the condensing unit, period. It was never a matter of being suck in "cool". When I would turn the unit to "heat" it was just dead. Turn it to cool and it would run. But I never told the factory guys any of that since that's not why I took it here. That would have been sort of like telling your eye doctor that your foot hurts...

Anyway, I was able to enlarge the photos enough to read the writing on the wires and the location of the writing relative to the end of the wire told me where each wire went. It's all re-connected and plumbed...waiting for the vac pump to arrive. And like all engine room projects, I now have some more tools and things to fish out of the bilge.

 

[spcoolin]

Angela~

I'm really interested in who you are calling Cruisair...
The Cruisair factory has always been in Richmond...To be specific...Mechanicsville Va...
But yes...There are many dealers in your area...Some of which I may or may not know from schools.

A heat problem as you describe (not running the condensing unit) is usually a thermostat issue...It's pretty simple to figure out & fix if you know what you are doing.

I'm really sorry you feel the way you do about "Cruisair" and that unit IS old & so is it's thermostat & reversing valve...Yes you can continue to repair the old stuff but you need to find a person with enough experience to know the older equipment well enough to repair it...

Believe me I know it's hard to find smart, dedicated people that want to learn to do this job now days...There really is no money in it for the young trainee until he can go out on his own, and even then, they make most of the money off of commission on sold equipment.

When I started out...I actually made more money fixing equipment because my boss refused to give a percentage of sales I made...I made more to remove a unit, change compressor, clean it up, fix leaks etc & paint it than I did to remove & install a new one which took less labor...

Problem with that is...The customer pays just about as much and still has an older painted up unit with little to no warranty...

All equipment by any builder is only as good as the service it gets...There are no exceptions...Just some cheaper built equipment that requires more service.

Steve~

 

[Angela]

I didn't take it to CruisAir. I took it to another manufacturer who has been doing work on my CA stuff when I come across a need that is more than I can do on my own. Yes, I know it's old, but it costs several thousands of dollars to just replace/update it. My labor on it is free, I have the tools, supplies and parts, so I really have nothing to lose by trying to fix it myself, and so far, I've been very lucky in successful repairs. I've got that modulating system still running well (knock on wood) since rebuilding the solenoid valve system and fixing all of the loose connections on the new condensing unit. I agree...that day will come when I cannot fix the old stuff and it's just gone, but I'm not there yet. My 30-year-old stuff is running circles around CruisAir's new stuff Any time I can fix it for a couple or few hours of my time, or a couple hundred dollars, that sure beats the pants off of the thousands it will take to replace it.

In the past, I've dealt with Louie, Butch and John at Cruisair. Two, if not all three of them, have now retired and nobody there now seems to care about the little people (the end users) anymore since we're not their real customer - maufacturers are. At least, that's been my experience and I stopped trying get them to do things like honor warranties on new stuff - it just wasn't worth my time and I've learned a valuable, and expensive, lesson from that experience. I have dockmates who have recently had the same experiences with CA, so it's not just me. My feelings about CA didn't come from my experiences with my old stuff - it came from the persistent failures of the new stuff, leaving me without AC for months at a time while the dealer and the distributor spent their time pointing the finger at each other and arguing over whose fault it was. It certainly wasn't mine, but I was the one having parted with thousands of dollars for a new unit that none of the dealer's service techs knew how to install, and that was a persistent failure - that's when I met Louie, Butch and John, and the unit was replaced yet once again.

As soon as I get my old glory re-charged, I'll start taking a look at the thermostat. I can swap it out with another one that I know is working properly and see if the trouble follows the thermostat or not. If it does, then there is my answer; if not, back to the drawing board. My friend, Ernie, forgot to bring this vac pump today so it's not going to happen tonight.

Best Ed and I can figure on the cut wires is that the guy at the factory thought he was supposed to replace the reversing valve instead of the service valve, then realized his mistake after disconnecting it, but before removing it, and then just stuffed the wires back in the box with the assumption that their tech would be re-installing it and would notice it.

 

[spcoolin]

I didn't take it to CruisAir. I took it to another manufacturer who has been doing work on my CA stuff when I come across a need that is more than I can do on my own. Yes, I know it's old, but it costs several thousands of dollars to just replace/update it. My labor on it is free, I have the tools, supplies and parts, so I really have nothing to lose by trying to fix it myself, and so far, I've been very lucky in successful repairs. I've got that modulating system still running well (knock on wood) since rebuilding the solenoid valve system and fixing all of the loose connections on the new condensing unit. I agree...that day will come when I cannot fix the old stuff and it's just gone, but I'm not there yet. My 30-year-old stuff is running circles around CruisAir's new stuff Any time I can fix it for a couple or few hours of my time, or a couple hundred dollars, that sure beats the pants off of the thousands it will take to replace it.

In the past, I've dealt with Louie, Butch and John at Cruisair. Two, if not all three of them, have now retired and nobody there now seems to care about the little people (the end users) anymore since we're not their real customer - maufacturers are. At least, that's been my experience and I stopped trying get them to do things like honor warranties on new stuff - it just wasn't worth my time and I've learned a valuable, and expensive, lesson from that experience. I have dockmates who have recently had the same experiences with CA, so it's not just me. My feelings about CA didn't come from my experiences with my old stuff - it came from the persistent failures of the new stuff, leaving me without AC for months at a time while the dealer and the distributor spent their time pointing the finger at each other and arguing over whose fault it was. It certainly wasn't mine, but I was the one having parted with thousands of dollars for a new unit that none of the dealer's service techs knew how to install, and that was a persistent failure - that's when I met Louie, Butch and John, and the unit was replaced yet once again.

As soon as I get my old glory re-charged, I'll start taking a look at the thermostat. I can swap it out with another one that I know is working properly and see if the trouble follows the thermostat or not. If it does, then there is my answer; if not, back to the drawing board. My friend, Ernie, forgot to bring this vac pump today so it's not going to happen tonight.

Best Ed and I can figure on the cut wires is that the guy at the factory thought he was supposed to replace the reversing valve instead of the service valve, then realized his mistake after disconnecting it, but before removing it, and then just stuffed the wires back in the box with the assumption that their tech would be re-installing it and would notice it.

I'm not sure what more to write to you Angela...If the guys you mention at Cruisair couldn't take care of your issues (BTW, two of the three are still there and I know all three pretty well) then my feeling is that the issues may not be addressable to your satisfaction....Some times things like that happen & everyone envolved gives up...

I do take issue with your statement that the older Cruisair runs circles around the new stuff...Those older blow thru air handlers can't hold a candle to the new ones...Heck...They can barely blow out a candle on high, and with the new ones you would never get that candle lit even on low...

Yes...The new modulating unit is different than the old one & the power relay is part of the electrical box on the unit itself...Also the compressor installed in the new 24,000 (old one was discontinued by Copeland) will not match the Air handler btu you have installed, so a larger modulating unit should have replaced the one you had for cooling....The new unit has no reversing valve (I have voiced a complaint about that) but they built the new modulating system/s to utilize heat strips that are installed in the Air handlers so that one cabin could have heat while another has cooling...Think about it...You never had that option with the old system...it was either all cooling, or all heating....Some might look at that as an improvement, and I can see the point....Cruisair is on the move forward....

As far as your WFAH-24 for the salon...It looks to be in fair shape...So yes I would (if doing the work) have repaired it in it's installed location and been done with it.
I would however have tried to get you to upgrade controls...New controls are leaps & bounds better than what was orginally installed on the 58 Hatt MY.

I will be servicing a new Modulating System on a 68' Lazzara tomorrow...Along with it's standard system brothers that are installed....Just a check up & a calibration of temp controls...The only problem that modulating system has had was a freon leak at the suction line service valve flare fitting that the Lazzara boys didn't mate properly to the unit when it was installed as new...Yes that owner got frustrated and blamed the equipment (Cruisair) and I had not been servicing it since new...I was called in and found the leak in less than 30 minutes...Fixing it took a few hours but the owner has been happy ever since....The Captain now uses me and this trip to the boat I think is more like a Xmas present to help me stay around for another year....And I appreciate that !!!
So I will go and drive 50 miles (round trip) in a truck full of parts & equipment that I pay commercial insurance on (that gets 12 MPG) + 2 million of liability insurance for the right to work in the marina.
I'll rummage around & check some pressures, clean some filters, calibrate some cabin controls, make some recommendations if I see something, and charge the man $160 for a service call (that's a 2 hour min @ $80 for two men)....That has to pay my helper & truck expences too...Not much left for me or my family's Christmas, much less office & mortage expences...

Yeah...Us A/C guys are making a fortune !!!

Angela....I can't speak for all A/C guys...But I can tell you what they make in general...I will swear it's not much unless we get to sell something...

My feeling with my life long customers is...They will buy from me when needed if I treat them well....It is where I make a dollar....It sure ain't on the service call...

I work hard to know what I know and if people I invest in won't take my advise...Well I really don't need to give them much more than a smile...

Again I can't say what you have been through....But it does not seem that I would want to continue with you unless you get real with me....I'd just tell you to go see the other guys...Really I would, and have done it many times !....I'd love you to deal with some of the other companies that make marine A/C...Without mentioning names...because I have serviced about all of them in my years....What I'm saying is...The tree you are barking up is not that tall, and I hope you find the other top.

I will look at this thread as closed in my mind...And you as a non issue....Please go ahead & bad mouth CA as you call them...I'm almost sure they will do the same in their avoidance of your issues....They know they can not win !....Please Buy Something Else !

It will make all happier....Till you need service again....

That's the truth as I see it...But I could be wrong, and have been once or twice...

Steve~