Got AC but no heat

[Angela]

7 A/C units ?...Have there been others added ? Or are you counting air handlers or controls...The bottom 4 only count as one system (one compressor)

I was counting "units" as it relates to triggering the pump and any air handler will trigger the pump. There are 7 of those. But yes, the boat has 3 compressors which, in total run 7 air handlers.

I had four of those grey boxes on the wall, plus the big useless box of capacitors (that is planned for removal on day, but I have to discharge them first, and currently, we are using it for ballast). One of those boxes was the pump relay, but it's gone now.

We did some rough calculations when considering 4 self-contained units and we come out just a tad under what I'm using now, so we're good in that department if we choose to go there one day. And because I've removed the seawater flushing toilets, I have/will have eight extra through hulls around the boat to choose from if I decide to give each unit its own pump. Again, the jury is still out on where to go from here. We're just considering our options for when that day comes.

Either a chiller, or one unit as you have (but non modulating) that keeps the whole lower deck the same temp may be your best option/s for the power available aboard...
Steve~

There is no way I could have the entire lower level set to one non-modulating control. The natural elements that dictate how well a room cools or warms varys greatly - think about the Miami summer sun beating down on the bow cabin versus that of the master stateroom - neither room will ever be comfortable if one thermostat is controlling both. And as a charteryacht, each set of guests in a room has to be in control of their own sleeping environment.

When I get the salon unit back on the shelf and power back to it, I'll fiddle with it some more. Heat isn't all that important here - just nice to have about 3 to 5 nights a year. It wouldn't surprise me if it just magically started working again. My 30 year old CruisAir in the pilothouse did nothing but short cycle when I got the boat. I coulple of years later...it just magically cured itself and it's been running great ever since. And I never touched it!

 

[spcoolin]

We did some rough calculations when considering 4 self-contained units and we come out just a tad under what I'm using now, so we're good in that department if we choose to go there one day. And because I've removed the seawater flushing toilets, I have/will have eight extra through hulls around the boat to choose from if I decide to give each unit its own pump. Again, the jury is still out on where to go from here. We're just considering our options for when that day comes.

There is no way I could have the entire lower level set to one non-modulating control. The natural elements that dictate how well a room cools or warms varys greatly - think about the Miami summer sun beating down on the bow cabin versus that of the master stateroom - neither room will ever be comfortable if one thermostat is controlling both. And as a charteryacht, each set of guests in a room has to be in control of their own sleeping environment.

Being a charter boat I can understand the need for individual control in each stateroom..
I will say I redid one boat like yours with a single non-modulating system & controlled it with a single SMXII with it's temp sensor mounted in the companionway leading aft to the aft staterooms...The owners were happy with that setup, but were not in the charter business...It did do a better job than you may think...

I'm thinking that the system you have now (condensing unit) draws somewhere around 6-7 amps running (add say 1 amp ea per blower on top of that) depending on seawater temp & cabin temp, and if the condenser is clean with no scale preventing good heat transfer to the seawater....around 11 amps total.

Going by memory...I believe you have
3ea 6000 btu air handlers (3 mid/fwd units)
1ea 10,000 btu (master stateroom)

Four new self contained Cruisair Turbo units...Three 6's + one 12 (most always said the 10 in the master was not big enough)
6000 btu units...2.1 x 3 = 6.3 amps
12,000 btu master...........3.4 amps
Total.............................9.7 amps

So I guess you are right on that, but will need to also figure one pump per unit (if you use one per extra thru hull) @ .5 amps.

For a new total of 11.7 amps...
Just slightly more than what you are drawing now (these new Turbo units are really efficient) but also take into consideration the starting load of the 4 units (each at any given time) and that surge can throw in another factor we may not have considered....

By my figures the upper level should draw around 22 amps with the pump...

11.7 + 22.0...33.7 amps leaving 16.3 amps available on one 50 amp shore cord.

Only did this as an exercise...You should be ok...and especially if you use two 50 amp cords...

Steve~

 

[Angela]

I currently have a 4K (littlest SR), 5K (twin SR), 8K (crew), and 12K (master) in the lower level. And yes, it's true that the condensing unit is only 24K which is why when all of them are running at the same time, they all do a lousy job of cooling. I guess they didn't think that one through on this one.

If I go with a pump for each unit, I can downsize my 3,000 GPH pump for the other two remaining units and gain a tiny it of amperage there.

 

[spcoolin]

I currently have a 4K (littlest SR), 5K (twin SR), 8K (crew), and 12K (master) in the lower level. And yes, it's true that the condensing unit is only 24K which is why when all of them are running at the same time, they all do a lousy job of cooling. I guess they didn't think that one through on this one.

If I go with a pump for each unit, I can downsize my 3,000 GPH pump for the other two remaining units and gain a tiny it of amperage there.

Actually...Although rated at 24,000 on the data sheet & model...We were told that the orginal Copeland compressor was good for up to 28,000 btu in the Cruisair schools...Though memory may be failing me since I have not worked on one of the old systems in quite some time (AH sizes)...I do remember what they told us to be true and the system did perform well (pressures) when charged properly, with 28,000 btu of load...

Yes you could drop that pump to a 1000 gph...It's also much more reliable being a magnetic drive model with no shaft seal or bronze head/impellar to wear out.

Steve~

 

[Fat Boy]

I turned on my forward unit today, amd could not get any heat either. I know that the compressor was runnin, when in heat mode, just no heat. This a 5 BTU with FX-1 Retrofit Kit . I was wandering if it may be a reversing valve. I have the cruisiar controls in the salon and all is working well. I noticed that the fan speed remained in low speed until I had the thermostat only about 3 degrees from the room temp. any adice here?

 

[Angela]

...original Copeland compressor...

Well, I can say from much experience and frustration in the past three years with the new CruisAir products is that they sure don't make 'em like they used to. I think the key to happiness in that system was with the ORIGINAL units. My nearly 30-year-old CA stuff has been good to me. The new CA stuff has been a royal pain.

 

[spcoolin]

I turned on my forward unit today, amd could not get any heat either. I know that the compressor was runnin, when in heat mode, just no heat. This a 5 BTU with FX-1 Retrofit Kit . I was wandering if it may be a reversing valve. I have the cruisiar controls in the salon and all is working well. I noticed that the fan speed remained in low speed until I had the thermostat only about 3 degrees from the room temp. any adice here?

The FX1 is probably set (in the programming mode) for reverse fan speeds in heat (which is good) because in heat mode the fan is doing the job that the water does in the cooling mode...It's removing the heat from the refrigerant and dumping it out into the cabin therefore the hotter the cabin gets, the harder it is for it to remove it from the coil causing higher head pressure...Raising the fan speed helps remove more heat.

You don't want to hear about the reversing valve being bad...It's not cheap to change...
I would first compare that unit's water coil (how it feels) compared to a similar unit that is also running in heat...It should be similar in temp by feel...
If it's colder (the one not heating) like frosty...it's not getting enough water.
If it's warmer (like the same temp as the seawater) then it's likely low on freon.
If it's Warm (warmer than the seawater) then the unit is cooling and you may not have power to the reversing valve coil, or that coil is bad...You hope...A stuck valve is not fun.

Steve~

 

[spcoolin]

Well, I can say from much experience and frustration in the past three years with the new CruisAir products is that they sure don't make 'em like they used to. I think the key to happiness in that system was with the ORIGINAL units. My nearly 30-year-old CA stuff has been good to me. The new CA stuff has been a royal pain.

Ang~

Adding up your figures...I come up with 29,000 btu of load on that compressor....If you have a new modulating condensing unit (rated @ 24,000)...No wonder the system won't perform....Even the old one would not perform with that much load, and I have a feeling that maybe your MSR or other air handler/s may have been replaced with larger models.

With a new condensing unit I would not go above 25,000 of air handler load...Again...No wonder....How does it cool with the little 4,000 turned off & all others on ?

Oh, and thank the EPA & compressor manufacturers for changing compressor specs...
They have slowly been forced into building different models that are more efficient (green)
Cruisair has had no control over that...Soon all of the small split system units will change to rotary compressors too...The old models are being discontinued...It remains to be seen on how well a rotary will hold up in a split system...We were always told they did not have a big enough oil reservoir for split system use...All of it's oil could feasibly be out in the system and not lubricating the compressor

Steve~

 

[Angela]

My evap/air handlers are all original - they are exactly what is listed in my original Hatteras documents - old yellowed papers, model numbers, and all!

It runs best when I turn off the twin stateroom. It runs just OK when I only have the littlest SR off and the rest are on - but it runs a lot since the cooling isn't what it really should be. When just the master and crew are running (most common situation), it cools very well in those areas.

 

[Fat Boy]

Steve,

Thanks for letting me slide into this conversation. I'm headed offshore this morning, I'll check things out and see whats happens today .

Allen

 

[spcoolin]

No problem Allen...Let us know what you find...

Ang~

Are you sitting down ?....LOL...If not grab a chair and maybe a cocktail or beer...

I know it's going to be hard to win you over on the modulating system, and it's hard for me to guess what is happening since I can not see the system run with pressure gauges and cycling air handlers...I can point out a few things that you might look at the next time gauges are connected...
But other than the modulating valve & the solenoid valves that shut off refrigerant...The system is really not that much different than any other A/C system in how it actually runs, or removes heat....

You have invested in a new condensing unit (among other things)...and that old power relay could be replaced (the one with the cubes) with a PR8X pump relay & 4 TR230 230 volt triggers fairly cheaply (the parts are around $250)...But the air handlers do need to match compressor capacity, and that fact is no different than a standard system...They are 30 years old...You will be replacing them one way or another anyway so their sizes could be altered at that time...I'll try to explain the whole thing....

First & Foremost...The best way to charge that system is by superheat...But that requires you have a means to measure it, and a long explanation...

The easy way to charge that system is to make sure all air handlers are on & running fast fan...
Then after it has run that way for awhile...
You can feel the suction (return) lines at the manifold...You are looking for all 4 lines to be "beer can cold"...Not the large line that goes to the service valve because it can be cold with just one air handler flooding.

If one or more is not beer can cold...Add refrigerant (a bit at a time) until all are beer can cold...Once all make that instant change...Stop adding refrigerant...This ensures that all air handlers are full or flooding completely...
Be sure to feel the individual lines (coming back from the air handlers) at the manifold...You will feel one that is low all of a sudden change from cool to beer can cold...

Once that is done, it now is a matter of what the pressures are running...Till all air handlers flood, you will not be getting an honest reading with the system full of refrigerant.

At 80 degrees cabin temp...You should be seeing somewhere around 70-75 psi suction (low side) pressure...If it's much higher than that (like around 80 psi)....It indicates the system has more load on it than designed (compressor not large enough) It's picking up more heat than the condensing unit was designed to remove.

What is true with any refrigeration system or refrigerant is...Pressure & Temperature automatically correspond...Higher the pressure...Higher the temp & vise verse.

R-22 @ 70 psi is around 42-43 degrees....This will also be the evaporator coil temp...So if it's up around 80 psi....That raises the evaporator coil temp to around 48 degrees...If it's higher than that...Well that just raises the coil temp higher, and thus....Warmer air blows out the grill....

The purpose of the modulating valve is to bypass the extra refrigerant back into the liquid receiver as load is removed by air handlers cycling off....To keep the suction pressure above the freezing point of the moisture in the air that is blowing across that coil or coils (R-22 is below 32 degrees around 58 psi)
More load picks up more heat & raises suction pressure...less load lowers it...
This is also the same as the temp of the cabins lower...Less heat is there to pick up...Again the same as fan speeds are decreased...You are moving less air across that/those coils...Therefore again less heat is picked up...

You never want the suction pressure to be below 58 psi because (with R-22) the coil/s will be below 32 degrees and freeze the humidity in the air that is passing across the coil....Thus reducing air flow more, and again lowering the amount of heat being picked up, lowering the suction pressure even more which compounds the problem...

What most R-22 A/C systems are built/designed to do is have a 15 to 18 degree temperature differential (TD) from the air entering to the air exiting that air coil....If it's More or Less that that 15 to 18 degrees...There is a problem related to one of the factors I have mentioned above...(lack of air flow is a reason for it to be more than 18 degrees)

I know all that may be a lot to digest at this point (then again you may already know all of it)...But it's how A/C works...The pressure drop on the low side is what makes the heat go away, and as we know...There really is no such thing as Cold...Only the Absence of Heat that feels Cold...

If the system does have the 70-75 psi suction pressure with 80 degrees cabin temp, and all air handlers have that 15 to 18 degree TD...Then the system is doing all that it can...But if the cabin temp does not lower...Then the air handler btu is not enough to overcome the btu of heat that is leaking into the space being cooled....Anotherwords...The system is too small.

So as you might see...There are many factors as to why it might not be doing the job but...I can't see all of this on a forum in your system...So it will be hard for me to go much further without more info, or being hands/eyes on...Plus as I tried to describe, proper freon charge & then operating pressures are key factors to finding out what is really happening.

I really would love to help more...and If you have questions on what I have said....I can try to help with that...

I will say that yes...24,000 btu may not be enough for the lower level of that boat in Miami heat...So all of this typing may be for naught....I guess I am just trying to help with understanding...

Steve~

 

[Fat Boy]

Steve,

After further investigation, I found that the compressor was not comng on, but it was warm to the touch. I'm not sure how long it hasnt been running as i usually leave it in dehumidification mode. Are there any fuses or something that I could check?

 

[spcoolin]

Steve,

After further investigation, I found that the compressor was not comng on, but it was warm to the touch. I'm not sure how long it hasnt been running as i usually leave it in dehumidification mode. Are there any fuses or something that I could check?

When you say warm to touch...How warm ?...Like hot, or just warm ?

No fuses but there is a thermal overload disc under the compressor terminal cover...If the compressor gets hot from lack of freon, or locks up & draws high amperage (high amperage overheats it too) the overload will trip...It will then reset itself after it cools off.
If you pop that cover off (cut power first) it will be a black round item (slightly smaller than a quarter) with two terminals (one soldered & one screw) pull it away from the compressor (small clip-on shiny metal retainer) so that it can cool in open air (there should be enough wire to do so without disconnecting it) you should hear it click once it cools....Get someone to re-power the system while you listen...It will make a pop noise when it trips...

If it pops...The compressor is likely locked up, or a connection/capacitor/relay in the electrical box (between the service valves) has burnt up....after verifying no bad connections, or that a capacitor has not expanded (pooched out like a fat boy) or exploded inside the box....
Leave the power off overnight to let the compressor cool, and try again in the morning...If it starts when cool then shut it off & get the freon checked...Do not run it anymore until you do...

Hope that helps...

Steve~

 

[spcoolin]

BTW...I would not use that unit in dehumidify...First it's probably not needed if you leave the door open & have another system om the same deck level in the dehumidify mode because moist air has an affinity to dry air.

But also because the 5,000 is the only Cruisair split unit that came with no High or Low pressure protection...Unless the model number is WFAH 5 "HLA" (HLA being the important designation) Hatteras was the only boat builder that would pay for both high & low pressure protection, so if it's been replaced...It probably does not have either, being Cruisair lowest priced unit at the time...All standard WFAH units from 7 to 16K (except the 5) had High pressure switches but no low pressure...

A unit with no pressure switches is not good to leave running unattended...It will just keep running till it burns itself up if something is wrong.

Steve~

 

[Fat Boy]

Thanks, I do have a pressure switch and the unit is only a few years old. I left the unit off a few hours ago, so Im going back down to see if the compressor is coolled off and will kick back on.

 

[Fat Boy]

Steve,

I had someone check, and I am, once again, out of freon. Ive been dealing with a very small leak for several years now. I guess its time to really dig in and try to find the leak. Nothing was fouind in the engine room around the compressor. Its time to get to the fan unit in the anchor locker and see if theres anything leaking up there. Is a freon leak detector the best tool to use here?

 

[spcoolin]

Yes I use a leak detector...I have 4...Some work better than others for different types of leaks.
If no leaks were detected around the condensing unit...and from your statements it seems it might be newer than the air handler....yes I would look at the air handler side, usually on the side that the freon lines feed into & out of...Peel the insulation back that covers the end of the coil...Look for an oily spot on the tubing...then use soap bubbles like spray Fantastic or 409....You won't get a big bubble but look for very small white spots...If you look closer you will actually see very little bubbles where the leak is...

Once you pinpoint the leak it's time for the oxy/acetylene torch & silver solder...The copper will be too dirty and hard to clean well enough to use any other combo...Don't even waste your time...

One thing you should know...If one of those copper joints is leaking...others might not be too far away from leaking.
I have repaired leaks in coils...Only to get a call back in as little as a week or two, or as much as a month or year, and find another leak (or more) at a different solder joint/s...

As you saw with the compressor getting hot...Running even just a bit low on freon is hard on them...

Steve~

 

[nyrussell]

Yeah, it used to work but it doesn't now.

Sky at Miami and Ang in Dayton. Boy oh boy. As you know then, winters aren't horrible here but we do get our fair share. Sky, I always wondered how you were the smartest guy on the forum!

Heck, I met the Amiral in Ohio at Antioch in Yellow Springs Ohio. Wonder what that means now too.... Urp....

 

[Fat Boy]

Had a leak. Problem solved. Thanks for your assistance.

 

[GJD]

Heck, I met the Amiral in Ohio at Antioch in Yellow Springs Ohio. Wonder what that means now too.... Urp....

Noel, That'd make her one of the beautiful people then. Yellow Springs is where the hippies and flower children live.