Got AC but no heat

[spcoolin]

Angela~

I just noticed that you have a 58 MY...Which system are we talking about ?

Originally that boat had what is called a Modulating system for the whole lower deck with one compressor serving 4 air handlers, and each of those air handlers had a Honeywell with the Master system control in the Master stateroom. (The 58 MY was the only Hatteras with this system)

If indeed we are talking about the lower deck level...And you have the Master control set to heat....Any one of the 4 Honeywell's should bring on the compressor...If none will...It's either the cabins are all too warm, the system is low on freon (low pressure switch is holding the system off) or there is a problem in the power relay box on the outboard side of the starboard engine room.

I would first try all the Honeywell's on the lower deck to see if any one will bring the compressor on in the heat position...

Steve~

 

[spcoolin]

If it's the "old" style Honeywell I think they are line voltage stats be carefull as you have 110 or 220 at the stat. If I recall correctly cool is a normally open circuit and heat is normally closed. So if the RV is not getting voltage it stays in cool mode. My stat had the designations on the back of the stat when I took it off to replace and upgrade my unit to digital control . I would kill the breaker and pull the stat out of the wall and look at the back to see , you could manually close the circuit for heat by just jumping the wires to each other there .......Pat

Yes...All Cruisair/Marine Air controls were Line Voltage before the introduction of the Digital controls.

In the case of the Modulating system...The Honeywell's were a bit different and had no control over Heat/Cool...That's what the Master control in the Master stateroom selected...the whole lower deck was either cooling or heating and the freon was shut off to each air handler when it's thermostat was satisfied...The Honeywell's only controlled a compressor trigger circuit that was sent to the power relay for the compressor, and the refrigerant solenoid valve for that cabin...But yes it was also line voltage.

Steve~

 

[Angela]

Steve, it's not the modulating system. I finally got that bastard system running again. I can't wait to be rid of that system, but since I have a new condensing unit down there, I'm hoping to get some more life out of it. It's been nothing but trouble - I've had 2 condensing units in the past 3 years for that system, and to make matters worse, few people know how to work on those. That system worked better on paper than it ever did in the field.

Back to the topic at issue....it's my salon system that has no heat. This one is a 24K condensing unit that runs 2 evap/air handlers simultaneously - no modulating in the salon (thank God!). Yes, I can hear the Honeywell click, when in cool mode, the compressor kicks on. When in heat mode - nothing from the condensing unit.

I don't have the unit running at the moment. The last guy to work on it broke the valve suction off and I had to pull the entire condensing unit off the shelf and take it to AquaAir where they put a new valve on it for me. Currently, it's sitting on my pilothouse floor waiting for Pascal to get back so he can help me lift it back up on the shelf. It weighs a ton! After that, I'll re-wire it, pull a vac and recharge it...THEN I can more actively troubleshoot the system.

 

[spcoolin]

Steve, it's not the modulating system. I finally got that bastard system running again. I can't wait to be rid of that system, but since I have a new condensing unit down there, I'm hoping to get some more life out of it. It's been nothing but trouble - I've had 2 condensing units in the past 3 years for that system, and to make matters worse, few people know how to work on those. That system worked better on paper than it ever did in the field.

Back to the topic at issue....it's my salon system that has no heat. This one is a 24K condensing unit that runs 2 evap/air handlers simultaneously - no modulating in the salon (thank God!). Yes, I can hear the Honeywell click, when in cool mode, the compressor kicks on. When in heat mode - nothing from the condensing unit.

I don't have the unit running at the moment. The last guy to work on it broke the valve suction off and I had to pull the entire condensing unit off the shelf and take it to AquaAir where they put a new valve on it for me. Currently, it's sitting on my pilothouse floor waiting for Pascal to get back so he can help me lift it back up on the shelf. It weighs a ton! After that, I'll re-wire it, pull a vac and recharge it...THEN I can more actively troubleshoot the system.

Angela~

First...Thanks for the response...

Not many people like the Modulating system...Personally...I Do like it...

Not many techs know how to work on it...but it can be a very good system.

I can understand if you want to get rid of it but it's the closest to a chilled water system as you may get without spending the money for the plumbing for chilled water as you might get...Again...It can be a very good system.

I have no idea where you are located...But there are guys that can make that system work very well.

Yes...The Salon system in the 58 had two 12,000 btu air handlers (differing 58 layouts had differing locations)

It's a shame the suction line service valve stem got snapped off...It does happen though...and it can be replaced...In place...It's only a 1/2" bolt under the base that if you remove the two front hold down bolts of the metal base to lift it away from the plywood, and then shove the handle of a screwdriver in there for space...You can get to the bottom side bolt for the service valve.

Once you get that out...You can sweat in a new one and go about your business of re-charging & re-starting the system....

Seriously ????
In my opinion You will Never be happy with the Honeywell's....Topside or Below....They just don't keep the temp anywhere near close to where you set them...

I honestly don't know of any customer that ever was satisfied...And I wouldn't have been either....It was either Too Hot, or Too Cold....No in-between...6 degree (or more) differential was way to wide....

That's not to say that you don't have a problem stopping you from getting heat....But from what you said with the unit not even installed, and me not there....It would be really hard to comment more....

I do still maintain that you should get the "Honeywell" itself to "click"....It should do it twice....Once on the way down for cooling & once on the way up for heat...
And you do not need a working system to test it....With say a 70 degree cabin...It should click twice...

Hope that helps some....

Steve~

 

[SKYCHENEY]

In my opinion You will Never be happy with the Honeywell's....Topside or Below....They just don't keep the temp anywhere near close to where you set them...

I honestly don't know of any customer that ever was satisfied...And I wouldn't have been either....It was either Too Hot, or Too Cold....No in-between...6 degree (or more) differential was way to wide....



Steve~

Steve,
Welcome to the forum. It's nice to have technicians that are familiar with our systems participate here.

I agree re: the Honeywell thermostats. I have replaced all of mine with the FX1 units from Coastal Climate Control. They are much more accurate and we like having the ability to have automatic fan speed control.

Have you used any of those units? How do they compare with the others out there? They seem to have a very good price and are easy to install. I guess time will tell, but after a couple of years, we are still happy with them.

 

[spcoolin]

Steve,
Welcome to the forum. It's nice to have technicians that are familiar with our systems participate here.

I agree re: the Honeywell thermostats. I have replaced all of mine with the FX1 units from Coastal Climate Control. They are much more accurate and we like having the ability to have automatic fan speed control.

Have you used any of those units? How do they compare with the others out there? They seem to have a very good price and are easy to install. I guess time will tell, but after a couple of years, we are still happy with them.

Thanks for the kind words Sky~

Actually the FX1 is an older version of Marine Air's Andy Spasiani's (not sure I spelled his name right) Micro Air control...Andy has always built the digital controls for Marine Air....Though I have never been as big a fan of his stuff as what Jere Crews developed with Honeywell & the SMX...Yes Andy's controls are good...
The problem with his controls are he has so many versions that won't talk to each other...Like 18 versions or more....

Yes...I have read the complaints here about the Cruisair SMX and not having replacement parts (boards) but...Cruisair up to that point only had 3 versions of the same keypad format...The original SMX that started the whole thing of digital controls in the marine A/C industry would not talk to it's replacement (the other two would talk to each other)...where as Andy had about 8-10 versions in the same time frame that would not talk to any of the others...

I work on both controls...always have...They are both now very good, but the Cruisair control still has more replaceable parts and to me is still the most reliable....They all have similar features now, but Cruisair still has the best system protection (especially for retrofit with pressure switches) & humidity control algorithm....But that all may be subjective, and I might be a bit biased as an old time Cruisair guy...I definitely like the operation of the Cruisair controls better at this point and some of it's programming parameters are still better implemented...It took the other guys a long time to catch up, and To Me the Cruisair control is Still worth more money if I was buying one.

But ALL beat the heck out of the manual controls !!!

Steve~

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Thanks Steve. It is interesting to hear the history of this stuff and what the people that work on it really think. Whenever I buy something I like to talk to the service techs and not the salesmen. The guys that have to deal with the problems will usually give you the real info.

 

[spcoolin]

Thanks Steve. It is interesting to hear the history of this stuff and what the people that work on it really think. Whenever I buy something I like to talk to the service techs and not the salesmen. The guys that have to deal with the problems will usually give you the real info.

That does not surprise me a bit...In my time with the distributor as a service guy covering the west coast of Florida...Owners always wanted to here from us in that way...We always tried to be honest in what we see as well.

After all...We do have to fix it, so when we recommend the wrong thing...We don't look so good when we need to come back....Eggs are good, but Not on your face...

Steve~

 

[Angela]

Steve, my Honeywell does click twice - once in each direction. I'm thinking it's something on the elecrical side, but here's a question - would it cause the compressor not to even try to start up if the refrigerant was just a wee bit low, i.e. still enough to provide cooling, but very, very gradually over time leaking out somewhere? In other words, is the heat cycle more sensitive to gas pressures than is the cooling cycle? On that same thought, though, wouldn't the compressor have to at least come on to detect pressure?

I don't know...but I'm probably the last person on earth who will ever be convinced that the modulating system in these 58MYs "can" be good systems, only due to the pure torture that system has been for me since Day One. LOL $7,000 invested in it, and it still isn't reliable. It left me with no cooling all summer long (in Miami!). I finally just ripped all those valves and coils off the wall and built new manifolds with all new parts.

That system has so many possible points of failure, that when I'd fix it here, it would blow up over there, and when I'd fix it over there, it would blow up way back there, and when I'd fix that...you get the picture - reminds me of one of those carnival games. I was even to the point of having to replace the guts inside those valves - and how in the world does an enclosure tube puncture???? And it has this habit of ALWAYS rearing its ugly head the day before charter guests are stepping onboard. It's evil, I tell you!!! It has hated me since we met. So, we are considering a chiller system when that thing bites the final bullet (or individual self-contained units). The jury is still out on that. For now, it's having the longest period of no repairs it's ever had - I haven't had to fix it since Labor Day. I hesitate to say "I won!" though.

 

[spcoolin]

Hi Ang~

Yes those old refrigerant manifolds were a source for leaks...I never liked the old valves but have since replaced with newer models without problems leaking...Running low on freon causes compressors to overheat because they do not get the refrigerant back to cool the compressor when low (seawater only removes heat from the refrigerant...Refrigerant cools the compressor)

The rest of the system (air handlers) are standard (no different than a non modulating system)
The power relay is quite different than a standard one though since it receives signal from 4 different sources (t-stats)

To answer your question about low freon & not heating...Yes that is true, but you first have to have the compressor run to realize it...And in the case of the modulating system...It may heat with say just 1 or 2 air handlers calling, but less with 3 and even less with 4...If the compressor won't run at all in heat mode, then I have to agree it is electrical as I mentioned earlier.

The low pressure switch only knows if the pressure is below 30 psi or over 60 psi...If it's below 30 psi it opens (closes at 60) the circuit to the compressor & will not allow it to run (It's line voltage and is in-line with the compressor common wire) it's one of the last things in the chain along with the High pressure switch & the compressor overload (which is last, and internal to that compressor)
You might first try jumping the low pressure switch for a test...If the compressor takes off...You know it's low on refrigerant...

You are right that not many techs knew that system, and that's part of why it got a bad reputation....One of the biggest problems for techs was charging it properly...There are some tricks to it.
Also consider that the money you have spent has been on a system that is close to 30 years old....It has lived long past it's normal life expectancy...But we do see Cruisair systems regularly last that long...To me that in itself, is quite a feat considering the marine environment they live in...How many home systems last that long ?

Steve~

 

[spcoolin]

Steve, my Honeywell does click twice - once in each direction.

You didn't say & I forgot to ask...Have you tried each of them to see if another will bring on the compressor with the master control (in the master stateroom) in the heat position ?
The Honeywell in the master stateroom may have a problem...

Steve~

 

[stormchaser]

My limited knowledge of AC say's reversing valve. I think you can tap on it to try and free it. You need dave or Krush for a real answer though.

Brian

I hate to disagree with you because you are right about 99.99999% of all things technical, but I've BTDT with stuck reversing valves. When they stick, the compressor still kicks in, it just blows cold air as if it were in cool/ac mode. But you are right on the solution...lots of whacking with a rubber mallet and applying/removing the power to it. I got mine freed up and it's working great now.

 

[spcoolin]

I hate to disagree with you because you are right about 99.99999% of all things technical, but I've BTDT with stuck reversing valves. When they stick, the compressor still kicks in, it just blows cold air as if it were in cool/ac mode. But you are right on the solution...lots of whacking with a rubber mallet and applying/removing the power to it. I got mine freed up and it's working great now.

Yes...The compressor has to run before you could say it was a stuck reversing valve...

Thing about reversing valves in my experience...They never seem to stick until you go to use heat, and they most times stick half way which causes the hot discharge from the compressor to recycle back onto the suction side of the compressor (not good for the valves in the compressor) and is evident by a hot suction line & a hot compressor (plus the system operating pressures will be way out of whack)

It's my feeling that the reason they stick is with the older manual controls...The valve never gets energized (until we need heat) and thus does not get the lubrication (oil travels around with the freon) it needs to stay operational.

Since the newer digital controls...We hardly see a stuck reversing valve...
That's because it is energized by the control anytime the compressor is called for (with the SMX only if it been off for less than 2 min) to equalize the system pressures before the re-start...This is so that the compressor never starts against that head pressure that has not had normal time to bleed thru the capillary tube & equalize as it would when the t-stat cycles off...Such as when shifting from shore to generator or back.

With the new controls there is no need to turn off A/C while switching power...They take care of it for you (with programmable time delays too) and also exercise/lube the reversing valve in the process.

Steve~

 

[spcoolin]

Steve, it's not the modulating system.

Ooops...Just went back & Guess I missed that part...Sorry but I got it stuck in my mind...

First try jumping the low pressure switch...

Then we can go to the power relay if jumping the switch does not bring the compressor on...

I will need to know if the Power Relay has been changed to the newer PWX model...Those 1980 systems in the 58 started out with boxes that had mechanical relays inside...The parts for the original became scarce so it could have been updated...

Steve~

 

[Traveler 45C]

With the new controls there is no need to turn off A/C while switching power...They take care of it for you (with programmable time delays too) and also exercise/lube the reversing valve in the process.

No need? Wow.

That's a lot of current rushing to the system to just throw the breaker to "Off" or when switching source power. Doing so could cause arching on the contacts.

Although it would be nice to be able to do that, I think its best to shut the systems down before switching power.

At least with the new controls if one should switch power without shutting the systems down the units won’t be damaged.

 

[Angela]

I will need to know if the Power Relay has been changed to the newer PWX model...Those 1980 systems in the 58 started out with boxes that had mechanical relays inside...The parts for the original became scarce so it could have been updated...

Steve~

The only thing that as been updated is the pump relay box and I don't think that's the problem. With 7 AC units onboard, that pump never shuts off! And the compressor in question starts up in cooling mode.

I can't physically test anything at the moment since the condensing unit is sitting on my pilothouse floor. I have to re-install it.

If the power relays you're talking about are those clear cubes that go "clack" real loud when they energize (and buzz really loud before they crap out), I don't recall the salon box having those - just the box for the four staterooms on the modulating system).

********

By the way, it sure is nice having a CruisAir guru onboard with us now who knows these systems. Other than Roger W. from Hatteras, nobody knows that modulating system I have which is why I had to dive in and learn way more about this thing than I wanted. When a new AC guy comes onboard to work on this system, I ask him to tell me how it works. If he gets it wrong, I ask him to leave. I'm out of people now which is why I took it upon myself to start rebuilding some of the components until we can pull the trigger on a chiller or self-contained units.

 

[spcoolin]

The only thing that as been updated is the pump relay box and I don't think that's the problem. With 7 AC units onboard, that pump never shuts off! And the compressor in question starts up in cooling mode.

I can't physically test anything at the moment since the condensing unit is sitting on my pilothouse floor. I have to re-install it.

If the power relays you're talking about are those clear cubes that go "clack" real loud when they energize (and buzz really loud before they crap out), I don't recall the salon box having those - just the box for the four staterooms on the modulating system).

********

By the way, it sure is nice having a CruisAir guru onboard with us now who knows these systems. Other than Roger W. from Hatteras, nobody knows that modulating system I have which is why I had to dive in and learn way more about this thing than I wanted. When a new AC guy comes onboard to work on this system, I ask him to tell me how it works. If he gets it wrong, I ask him to leave. I'm out of people now which is why I took it upon myself to start rebuilding some of the components until we can pull the trigger on a chiller or self-contained units.

Thanks Ang~

7 A/C units ?...Have there been others added ? Or are you counting air handlers or controls...The bottom 4 only count as one system (one compressor)

Just so you know...All units on a Hatteras 16,000 btu or larger will have a power relay to carry the compressor load (rather than that heavy amperage going out thru the cabin controls)
It will have a Cruisair sticker that states the model number as being "PWX" (if it's the newer model) and is the same size box as the PR8X pump relay.

Originally the 58 had three of the boxes (like the one with clear cubes) all lined up beside each other...each had a breaker in the face, but not all had the cubes inside (those are double pole, double throw relays btw) Yes those are the old style power relay boxes...Not the newer style PWX...

Also I didn't mean to imply that it may be a problem with the pump relay...

You also had at one time a blue box full of capacitors (down low and outboard of the A/C rack...It's what they called a power factor box...It was a Hatteras & Jere Crew's shared invention that was later determined to do absolutely Nothing but add weight & take up space...If you still have it...You can safely remove it & gain back that space...

In your future planning...I think you may have a problem with power if you go with 4 self contained units...Also pumping seawater to those self contained units that distance presents a whole new set of maintenance problems in keeping the marine growth down in the plumbing feeding them...

Either a chiller, or one unit as you have (but non modulating) that keeps the whole lower deck the same temp may be your best option/s for the power available aboard...The chiller should be the most expensive option by a long shot, but with it you can retain individual cabin temp control...Chiller's drawback is it's not as good at humidity removal.

Steve~

 

[GJD]

Here's those thermostats. The twisty knob one is in the forward stateroom. The honeywells are in the other 3 locations (1 salon, 1 ea other stateroom). Pictures were taken with the 'excellent' iphone camera!

 

[GJD]

I'm laughing me arse off right now because, having uploaded those pics, I think I might see the reason for the no heat problem. Anyone else see it? Good Lord!

 

[Angela]

Yeah...try turning that little lever to "auto" or the other one to "heat" (photos are very fuzzy). If that's your problem, lucky you. My problem isn't that simple. However, I only think of "I've got no heat" about 3 to 5 days a years which is why I've never thrown any real money at fixing the "heat" issue. God knows, I've thrown a mint at fixing the "cooling" end.