Fuel Tank Materials

[akintosyali]

While visiting the local resin shop looking for UL 1316 resin, the shop owner said that if I really want to make sure that I do not run into problems with insurance in the future - or prevent any headache in case I sell the boat, I hire a company to do the job. I talked to him for a while, and realized that if I do some of the prep work myself (opening up the bed frames, cutting up the top of the tank, sand and clean the tank) and just get them to apply the resin - I would be in much better shape. I think I agree with him.

PS: The coolest thing about opening up one of the bed frames to see the tank is that I finally know my hull ID! In 1965 they didn't have any standard way of stamping the hull id, and behind the cabinets/drawers/engine room columns hadn't turned up anything. The moment I opened up the tank, I saw this old sticker on the tank. Hull id: C102. made by Jimmy Gordon, 10/4/64. How cool is that! Thanks Jimmy! Your tank still looks great. Sorry that I have to go into it and do some work on it after 43 years...

PS2: Looks like my tanks have 4 horizontal plates built in as baffles. I will upload the pictures soon..

 

[Maynard Rupp]

Re: Bit the bullet converting tanks now

I figured why wait for this problem to come to me in the middle of boating season - so our 1968 38 Aft Cabin is in the middle of it's conversion to aluminum tanks right now. The project is going well but it is not one for the faint of heart. This may be the one time it's easier to work on an aft cabin configuration. The old tanks came out and the new tanks went in through the doors, but man is it tight. I never put ethanol into my old tanks, so I can't address the questions about what things look like after the ethanol starts to dissolve them. The guy next to me in the storage barn, has a later model 40 foot Hatt and is having all kinds of problems with what he says looks likes "leaves" in his fuel. He is plugging up filters at the rate of 1 every couple of hours. He is not, however seeing the black varnish effect that we've all been reading about. Maybe that all comes later. He does seem to be somewhat in denial about how big a problem this could be, and I don't have the heart to give him the chapter and verse from BoatUS, though I suggested he might want to check into it.

I had been a proponent of the polyethylene tanks at first, but going with aluminum does allow you to get exactly the tank configuration you want. In spite of a pretty nice array of polyethylene tank configurations available, it's unlikely that your going to find one with the fill, vent, and pickup right where you want them. This will add to the frustration and cost of putting in replacement tanks. I have to admit that the lack of baffles in the tanks was somewhat of a concern, but it might not have been a showstopper in a smaller tank. The Aluminum tanks were built and shipped from Speedy-Tanks 5 days after I faxed them a drawing, and they really are a thing of beauty. Thanks to Unique Name for the recommendation. By the way, I have 2 perfectly good 150 gallon tanks. If anyone is interested, they can have them gratis.

I have been taking a lot of photos of this operation and will compile them for everyone to see when the project is finished.

Eric

I am a little concerned about both internal and external corrosion on your new aluminum tanks. In a salt water and humid environment the outside will oxidise quickly. After reading an article in the paper about UL removing approval from E85 gas pumps because of corrosion of the internal metal parts, I would also be concerned about the internal corrosion when the ethanol laced gasoline gets working on those tanks. I hope I am wrong.

 

[jim rosenthal]

You aren't wrong, Maynard, and it's going to be a problem with a capital "P". The more water in the fuel, the more corrosion. The more ethanol, the more water. Not a good scenario. Not at all. This is one of the reasons PBR has been complaining about aluminum tanks all these years, and it is going to get worse, not better.

I wish someone would set up to make plastic tanks for vintage boats. There's a market out there that is untapped as yet.

 

[Boss Lady]

I would seriously look at cutting the tanks open, removing the baffles, and intalling bladders with internal baffles. I posted on this sometime ago with a link to a company we used when I was in the military. Do a search for bladders on the forum. I know these will work without side effects and the fill/vent plates will probably bolt to the original mounting location on the fiberglass tanks.

 

[smoothmove]

Re: Bit the bullet converting tanks now

I am a little concerned about both internal and external corrosion on your new aluminum tanks. In a salt water and humid environment the outside will oxidise quickly. After reading an article in the paper about UL removing approval from E85 gas pumps because of corrosion of the internal metal parts, I would also be concerned about the internal corrosion when the ethanol laced gasoline gets working on those tanks. I hope I am wrong.

I'm a little worried too, but sometimes if you can't do exactly what you want you have to do the best you can. Aluminum is hardly an ideal material, but it's about as good as anything else you can do right now. I hope someone does come up with a baffled poly tank that makes a good replacement for the old boats, but I wouldn't count on it. Launch is a couple of months away and I intend to be out there. I looked into bladders, polyethylene, coatings and monel and chose aluminum. If someone finds a better choice, more power to them. The aluminum tanks that went in were painted with epoxy and I hope that minimizes corrosion on the outside. We don't boat in salt water so our corrosion issues are not as intense. The tanks were installed with corrosion prevention in mind. Here's a pdf of the whole process. I hope this works

 

[smoothmove]

Guess that didn't work. Doug says pdfs should be ok. Is 200k too big? After the upload window closes it says 0 bytes owned by smoothmove. Suggestions?


Let's try it this way

http://www.wacolab.com/ej/smooth.pdf

Eric

 

[ohiohatteras]

I would seriously look at cutting the tanks open, removing the baffles, and intalling bladders with internal baffles. I posted on this sometime ago with a link to a company we used when I was in the military. Do a search for bladders on the forum. I know these will work without side effects and the fill/vent plates will probably bolt to the original mounting location on the fiberglass tanks.

I think we might make another season here in NE Ohio without ethanol....but I definately got the bad resin....mines a 1976. IMHO....This bladder idea seems to me to be the best alternative......unless the bladder material is prone to E10 issue too!
Not looking forward to attacking my just completely painted boat......This whole issue sucks!

 

[jim rosenthal]

Eric,
Cool installation and the pdf file is great. I am going to have to learn how to do that, once I have something worth posting. Very nice.

I think if you turn your fuel over frequently (ie do a lot of boating) and watch the water separators, you should be fine. I hope so- you've gone to a lot of trouble.

 

[Maynard Rupp]

That is an awesome PDF presentation. I would also like to know how you did that. Not the tank install, I can see that very well. How did you create the pdf, and make it available here?

 

[67hat34c]

I have been giving this issue some attention lately as I believe Ethanol is comming to FL in the near future.

I also do not want to cut up the deck on ours, just had top side painted but it appears we will be headed this way. anyhow what is the difference betweeen cutting tank removing the baffels and installing a bladder or just installing plastic tank with no baffels, seems to be the same thing.

Here is another idea, instead of one plastic tank with no baffels why not go with 2 tanks on each side. i think our 34c has 2 120gallon tanks. why not use a 90g tank and a 30 behind it. Reason is that the ethanol fuel spoils so keep the 90 dry and use the 30g tanks for the short runs etc. also have a second pick up tube in each tank that goes all the way to the bottom, install an electric fuel pump to that pick up and have a way to empty the 90g tank into the 30 and also have a way to pump the bottom of the tank into a portable container. basically if you put a little fuel in and there is moisture, you can pump it out and dispose of it.

SS tanks may also be an alternative, yes the welds can crack but if the basic tank is made from one sheet with the 2 sides bent and just the corners welded and the top welded then there is less risk. also why not re inforce the joint by gluing a 2x2" angle piece along the outside edge, use 5200 or some material that is flexible but fuel proof.

the stainless tank could be divided to act like 2 tanks 90/30

any thoughts on these ideas?

 

[smoothmove]

That is an awesome PDF presentation. I would also like to know how you did that. Not the tank install, I can see that very well. How did you create the pdf, and make it available here?

Really nothing special. Most people, maybe all, have the Acrobat Reader, you have to spend a few bucks though to buy the full Adobe Acrobat. When installed, you can convert just about any document or or picture to pdf. I tried to upload the file to the Sam's website but I think it might have been too big. (200K) Administrator Doug said that it should work. Just for kicks - I'll try loading a smaller file here.
Eric

01/16
Doug returned a PM and said that the maximum size for the attachment, be it .jpg or .pdf is 80K. Perhaps everyone else already knew that, but it is why the first .pdf did not post.
ej

 

[smoothmove]

Well, I guess we answered that question!
Eric

 

[akintosyali]

Well, got the naswer to VE 8770 from interplactic company:
(on an email received 01/18/07):
...
Mr Tosyali: The reference for the VE 8770 is for the use of this vinyl ester resin in the manufacture of whole tanks for multi-fuels capability. It cannot be used as a coating material. I do not know of a coating material that will accomplish what you require. Thank you for contacting us.
Terry McCabe, Business Manager for Engineering Materials

I've just decided to get rid of the two tanks and get a single larger tank.

 

[Beckytek]

This company makes a product designed for coating gas tanks that should work. Look under products for (Glass Armor 27P), www.bridgeportchemical.com Ron

 

[SKYCHENEY]

This company makes a product designed for coating gas tanks that should work. Look under products for (Glass Armor 27P), www.bridgeportchemical.com Ron

I have the Glass Armor as a lining in our car wash. They just sprayed it right over the concrete block. It's shiny and with a smooth glassy look.