Fuel Tank Materials

[Boatsb]

OK so lets blame the lawyers. Not the self important politicians who will screw us for their own benefit. Wait they are Lawyers. We are screwed!!!!!!!!!!


Give me my ethanol in a glass with ice please.

 

[OVERSPRAY]

I don't mean to keep getting into the chemical properties, but I have to say that even though the resin and activator should "cross link" and become "polymer" there are allways ways to disolve plastic. Take urethane for example, High solids urethane primers, epoxys, and clearcoats are all hardened with the same method of catalyst, product principle. but you can take any epoxy, urethane, or any thermoset product that I know of and put paint stripper on it and see a change!! some will only show mild signs of softening, but others will wrinkle up on contact or disolve. So, my point is no matter how long its been a catalyzed surface, something somewhere can and will break the bond.

 

[Jackman]

Maybe its possible, but out of all the alcohols and other solvents in gas ethanol is most certainly not the strongest or most probable for it to happen with....On a theoretical level I would say its middle of the road at best. And for it to happen you would need more than just ethanol as a factor I would say you need a reasonable amount of heat and some acidity to be present....but for all practical purposes this shouldn't happen. I think its more probable that the resin is in pockets unreacted like I said before and it gets dissolved by the alcohol....in a perfect world there should not be unreacted resin present.

Anyhow, I read a bunch on the Bert website and the most recent posts have indicated that they are now thinking that its more of a thing where there are flaws in the tanks being exacerbated by the ethanol or just now being noticed because people are looking closer at their tanks than before. I've thought this from the beginning but getting caught up in the talk has made it difficult to even believe the facts that may be right in front of you from the start. The tank of one Bert owner was taken apart and he put up a lot of pictures that clearly indicated that it was not ethanol that did the damage...Some of the yards that have Berts in them because of tanks needing to be replaced admit that the tanks never had ethanol fuel in them and the damage is still there..the blistering and degredation of the tanks....gas saturated fiberglass ect.) They even mentioned the resin pockets theory I talked about before I even read the site for the first time, which was yesterday.

Really, though, how many newer tanks are failing, by that I mean post late 70's? Maybe it was more of a factor of better techniques used in the later models of Hats and Berts than the factor of ethanol? If it was ethanol unquestionably dissolving the fiberglass or freeing up the ersin from a crocsslinked polymer, which I still don't think is happening, wouldn't the sides and bottom of every fiberglass tank fall out? We're not seeing that, even in the older boats. In the few tanks we are seeing fail its sporadically thoughout the Hat family and not in the same places in the tanks...its in random locations. Fuel is spread out over the entire surface on the inside of a tank when its filled...it should happen all over and quicker if it was ethanol and not design or poor curing/layupo techniques.

 

[sammidog]

I was reading how Tiara is replacing aluminum tanks because they are too close to the bottom and are sitting in bilge water and causing corrosion. In the article they said that the law states that boat manufacturers are only responsible for defects for 5 years so I suspect Hatteras is free and clear. They were saying how Tiara was going above and beyond what was necessary and should be commended because they were going back into the 80's to replace the tanks.

 

[MarioG]

while I was prepping our boat up in MD, the yard that I was doing the work in really suggested that I change the tanks because of the E fuel issue in their state. They also stated that they had done a bunch already. Although the case sounds good, I did my own super scientific test. I drained out some fuel out of the partially empty tanks into a bowl and let it sit undisturbed over night. Conclusion, clear, clean fuel. I installed a set of Racor filters and checked the fuel as part of my morning pre-start checks. No evidence found of contamination. for now I'm not too worried about the tanks. Florida has no E based fuels (yet). Some day It may be possiable that I may need to cross this bridge but by then hopfully there will be more data to back up any findings or I may have changed to a diesel powered boat.

 

[sammidog]

Simple test for alcohol in your fuel (i'll bet you'll be surprised). Buy a syring at the drugstore
suck into the syringe 6cc of water
invert the syringe and squirt out all but 3cc of water
draw a sample of gasoline to the 12 cc mark
close off the tip with your finger and shake it up
stand the syringe tip up for 1 minute
if there is alcohol in the gas it will have combined with the water and dropped to the bottom of the syringe.
to determine the %age of alcohol use the info below
If the line between gas and water is at:
9cc no alcohol
8.6cc 5%
8.1cc 10%
7.7cc 15%
7.2cc 20%

This info is from a "Motor Boating and Sailing" December 1985 magazine.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

I was reading how Tiara is replacing aluminum tanks because they are too close to the bottom and are sitting in bilge water and causing corrosion. In the article they said that the law states that boat manufacturers are only responsible for defects for 5 years so I suspect Hatteras is free and clear. They were saying how Tiara was going above and beyond what was necessary and should be commended because they were going back into the 80's to replace the tanks.

I'll have to admit, Tiara is pretty good about making repairs out of warranty. My dad had a 43 Open and it had a bulkhead in the lazarette that was delaminating. Tiara sent their guys up and fixed it for free. This was on an 8 year old boat.

 

[brian4190]

has anyone used an alcohol based water absorber in their tank's? since these products were available for many years i wonder why we have not heard of gas tank problems from useing them.(if they are ethanol based of which i am not sure)

 

[Jackman]

That test is qualitative not quantitative. You will be able to determine if there is alcohol in your fuel but not how much and what kind....there's more than one. The ratio calculations only work when you know for sure that the only alcohol in you fuel is ethanol.

I for one, would never get in line to sue or blame anyone for this. I don't believe in it. I believe in tackling the probelm, finding out the cause and cure so that it doesn't happen again and then move on. Lawyers and courts are not in my vocab. So thats not the direction I am heading with this discussion. I want scientific proof of what is going on before I decide that I do need to or don't need to replace the tank. At this moment, there isn't enough proof to make a blanket statement that all fiberglass tanks need to be replaced. All I hear and read are specific failures that don't yield enough evidence to say ethanol is the culprit in all cases and that a well built tank will definitely fail because of it. I will continue to look into this.

 

[Boatsb]

I believe the additave you refer to was methanol based. Its easy t o tet for alcohol type. Drink it . If you loose your eyesight its methanol.

( Please do not try this its only a bad joke. Methanol will blind you) Ok Mr. Lawyer?

 

[sammidog]

Jackman, my point of posting the article from MB&S was to point out that there is a simple way to test for alcohol in fuel. Many people here seem to think they are buying straight gasoline and they probably are not. As far as I know ethanol and methanol are the 2 possible alcohols and they found that methanol is too corrosive and significantly increases risk of vapor lock so I don't think it is used anymore(I could be wrong) if so probably only in 3%. As for a lawsuit,
" Lawyers and courts are not in my vocab. So thats not the direction I am heading with this discussion." That may not be the direction you are heading but other people have opinions too. I can almost guarantee that if someone is killed from a fuel leak there will be a lawsuit whether you agree with it or not. If a Hatteras was docked next to my boat and exploded killing a member of my family you can bet your sweet a$$ I would go after Hatteras, the owner of the boat for lack of maintenance, EPA (although you can't sue the government) and the refiner. If it happened to be your boat, I don't think telling a jury that "I was not sure if it was uncured resin or the matrix itself that could leak so I didn't see the need to replace the tank" will hold much water. If I had a leaking tank and I had to replace it, I agree, I would not expect Hatteras to replace it but it would be nice if they would help out. Maybe build a new tank and my job to get it in.
I'm not trying to arguementative Jackman, I agree with everything you said. Unfortunately lawsuits are a part of the world now like it or not.

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

mariog:
the racors will not give you any clue the tanks are failing. the contaminants go right thru. i had the black stuff gunking up my motors and cut open my racors to find nothing.

jackman:
if you have read the boat us test results, it seems to me (not a chemist) it
is saying pretty much what you are saying about imperfect cures. who is willing to bet their motors they have "perfect" tanks? i did and lost.
along with all the talk and test results the straw that finally caused me to shed my denial was after close to 1 year of researching i could not find ANY other tank material that caused the same symptoms as the glass tanks do. i still hope those of us who have changed tanks are wrong (i still have my tanks in the garage) but i don't think so.

 

[sammidog]

UNIQUE_NAME,
did you cut your tank open and inspect it? How many areas were bad? Isolated one or two areas or many all over. Can anyone confirm (1st hand, saw it themself) that a tank went bad in a boat newer than 1980. The whole thing is a strange one. I can't believe that technique in manufacture is the only factor. Ron Lamm said that no hatteras 32 has the special resin therefore you would think that there would be failure in at least one of them somewhere. I still say time is a factor somehow.

 

[Jackman]

I did not read a recent boatus report. Is there a newer one than from earlier in the year? The one I did read was from awhile ago and was pasted into a post on another website.

My discussion points have all been thoroughly discussed with coworkers with advanced pHds in organic, polymer and analytical chemistry. It doesn't mean our views are flawless and 100% correct but we do have the ability to make educated points on what could be going on.

Take for instance the earlier arguements from the boatus study. They did what I call a lot of "kitchen chemistry" tests that to me do not scientifically make sense or allow you to make a decision as to whether or not tank material is degrading because of ethanol. They cut pieces of tank up, soaked the pieces in ethanol and did an IR Spec scan on the solution. I won't get into the theory but IR spectrophotometry does not definitively show that there is resin breaking free of the crosslinked polymers...it only shows there is either free/unreacted resin present or there are polymeric compounds containing segments of the resin. You can't tell with these tests the difference between having free unreacted pockets of resin in the tank versus somehow degrading the polymer to the point that resin is freed up. The other point is that if the polymer breaks down from ethanol, which I don't believe is happening, the chances of it fragmenting perfectly so that the original resin is the only by-product of degredation is very unlikely. Polymers are random in nature as would be such a degredation pathway.


Sammidogg....we haven't had the e-gas over here on the east coat for more than 2yrs...Wouldn't you think there would be a ton of reports from the west coat 32's by now about their tanks failing? Havn't heard of one yet myself. Only of older tanks wehere the only difference may have been technique.

 

[Maynard Rupp]

I have thought all along that the problem with the "old" fuel tanks is improperly mixed or catalysed resin. Fiberglass work was a real head scratching activity before the mid '70s. they overbuilt most boats and had a bunch of problems with many of the early layups. I think Jackman has the real answer in his posts. My friend has a newer 1986 Bertram 28 with the larger tank. He has no signs whatsoever of anything coming from that tank except gasoline.

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

sammidog: no i haven't cut my tanks open, i don't think there would be anything different than the 3 (2 berts, 1 hatt) other tanks i've witnessed. now i don't know what the inside looked like before problems, but i know even a bad glass job would be better than these ended up looking. again, these were not 80's vintage like you guys.

jackman:
while i get the jist of you're theory, whether it's pockets of unreacted resin or breakdown of the cured resin made no difference to me. the outcome was the same, tank degridation and engine failure. now maybe you post 80's guys
dodged the bullet with the resin change and better layup techniches, i hope so. in a way it was easier for us early guys, there was nothing ambiguous about our problem.

 

[akintosyali]

So I called interplastic to get some VE8770. They said they do not sell in small quantities and asked me to call a distributor, Express Composites. Express Composites do not have VE8770, asked me to call some place in RI. I called them, and they don't have any VE and asked me to call Express. So the loop here??

Gave a shot to Glass Armor. They have it, but the glass armor can only be applied using a $40K spray gun. For that kinda money, I can get new and bigger engines (that have no oil stains!), have the whole boat repainted top to bottom and buy a bottle of rum for each boat in the marina...

So:
1- Where did you guys get VE8770??
2- If no longer available, can I use just west epoxy to coat the tanks??

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

i believe west systems has made the statement their epoxy is not immune to the ethanol ills.

 

[Don Charland]

Just an update on mine. Insurance Company put me on "port risk ashore", meaning I am covered as long as vsl is on the hard and deactivated or change tanks or repower with diesels. I questioned them about docmenting the coating process with a marine suveyor. They sent me a disclaimer to sign which basicly says if I keep the fiber glass tanks, any claim made which can be remotly attributed to the fuel tanks is unpayable. Not an issue when I repower to diesels, (for now...).

 

[smoothmove]

Bit the bullet converting tanks now

I figured why wait for this problem to come to me in the middle of boating season - so our 1968 38 Aft Cabin is in the middle of it's conversion to aluminum tanks right now. The project is going well but it is not one for the faint of heart. This may be the one time it's easier to work on an aft cabin configuration. The old tanks came out and the new tanks went in through the doors, but man is it tight. I never put ethanol into my old tanks, so I can't address the questions about what things look like after the ethanol starts to dissolve them. The guy next to me in the storage barn, has a later model 40 foot Hatt and is having all kinds of problems with what he says looks likes "leaves" in his fuel. He is plugging up filters at the rate of 1 every couple of hours. He is not, however seeing the black varnish effect that we've all been reading about. Maybe that all comes later. He does seem to be somewhat in denial about how big a problem this could be, and I don't have the heart to give him the chapter and verse from BoatUS, though I suggested he might want to check into it.

I had been a proponent of the polyethylene tanks at first, but going with aluminum does allow you to get exactly the tank configuration you want. In spite of a pretty nice array of polyethylene tank configurations available, it's unlikely that your going to find one with the fill, vent, and pickup right where you want them. This will add to the frustration and cost of putting in replacement tanks. I have to admit that the lack of baffles in the tanks was somewhat of a concern, but it might not have been a showstopper in a smaller tank. The Aluminum tanks were built and shipped from Speedy-Tanks 5 days after I faxed them a drawing, and they really are a thing of beauty. Thanks to Unique Name for the recommendation. By the way, I have 2 perfectly good 150 gallon tanks. If anyone is interested, they can have them gratis.

I have been taking a lot of photos of this operation and will compile them for everyone to see when the project is finished.

Eric