Fuel Tank Materials

[Maynard Rupp]

I think we need to get this thread going as it looks like we all might have a problem in this area soon. IMHO the only good material for larger fuel tanks is fiberglass. The plastic ones have no baffles; that's bad. The steel ones rust, the aluminum tanks rot completly. Stainless tanks have seam problems. With Ethanol in fuels we use, all metal tanks are useless as this stuff absorbs water like crazy. That will corrode the tank from the inside. Fiberglass cloth with epoxy or vinylester should be able to work with ethanol. I am not convinced that most of us have a problem anyway. In the mid 70s they were forced to re-formulate polyester resin to remove much of the petroleum. Remember, that's when the blister problem started. The old boats never did blister. They had no clue about the need to ethanol proof the tanks, so I am sure they switched resins several times over the years; mostly for cost or legislative reasons, I think. I don't think anyone knows specificlly which tanks are OK and which aren't. Our 1986 36C shows no signs of any problems so far. There is an outfit that makes replacement tanks for 28' Bertrams. I don't know what resin they use, but their claim is it is OK with that stupid Ethanol. I am sure other builders will be stepping up to the plate soon also. Bertram's have removable cockpits so they are not as tough as a Hatteras to change a tank for. I hope that our goofy govt. comes to their senses and gets rid of that stuff soon.

 

[Beckytek]

I have an 88 40' DC, so maybe my tanks are ok with ethanol (?), only time will tell. I have full tanks of non ethanol gas right now so I'm good for the summer. There is another 87 40' DC here on the river, (just bought it this year) who has been running all last summer with ethanol and so far no problems. I'll check with him in the spring to see how it wintered. Anyway I was thinking if I did have a problem my first choice would be to cut off the tops of the tanks and coat them with an ethanol resistant coating. Several chemical manufacturers make it. It will withstand 100% ethanol. I can get to my stern tank easily, right under the queen. The keel tank would be tougher but anything would be better than tearing up my overhead and cutting a hole in the deck plus getting that thing out would be a bear. Then putting it all back together again, no way. Just my .02 Ron

 

[Paul45c]

I shared on a thread we had going on this earlier (maybe 8 mos. ago?) that I checked with Dusky Marine about the tank in my little 23' cc, 1994 model.

Their head parts guy had an interesting answer. They're good up to 15% ethanol blend, and that comes straight from the tank manufacturer (fiberglass). Beyond that, he said nobody really knows. He said to be VERY wary of anyone who can say with certainty they can handle a 20% blend because no one really knows. He claims there is no hose today that could handle 20, anyway, and USCG won't rate them to that spec. There isn't even a spec for it yet, apparently.

If we start seeing ethanol blends 20% and beyond, I'll put my faith in the chemists...they'll come up with some kind of resin that won't lose its cure in the tank with that nasty crap floating in it.

 

[SeaSwick]

I In the mid 70s they were forced to re-formulate polyester resin to remove much of the petroleum. Remember, that's when the blister problem started. The old boats never did blister.

When I had my 1960 41 trucked north from Tx, I had her bottom paint stripped before she made the trip. There were only about half a dozen areas I worked on... none that really were blisters, which was a pleasant surprize!

But I digress...

As for fuel tank coatings, I'm still going to use a vinyl-ester coating UL approved for coating existing underground fiberglass gasoline storage tanks.

INTERPLASTIC's CoREZYNA(r) VE8770 VINYL ESTER, rated UL1316 for "All Fuels" applications.

The UL1316 rating makes it acceptable to marine insurers (HA! We'll see...)

Search for my post (and the thread) "Baffled by baffles..." One member has received a "Get your boat out'a the water until you get new tanks" letter from his (un)insurance company.

 

[Maynard Rupp]

Maybe our government will come to its senses before we all have a real problem with Ethanol. I just read an article that said the UL group, (Underwriters lab.), withdrew their approval for all pumps that dispense E85. They have found extensive corrosion in all the metal parts of the pump. Surprise, Surprise. We used methanol, (similar to Ethanol) to mix with nitromethane for our fuel dragsters. At the end of one season we had an almost empty barrel of methanol. I rolled it outside, and left only one cap slightly loose for expansion. The following spring the barrel was almost 1/3 full. Yup, that methanol had absorbed lots of water over the winter. So corrosion of metal fuel syatem parts is another factor.

 

[sammidog]

Has anyone contacted hatteras for guidance on tanks. I suspect they will be mum for legal reasons. My feeling is time is more of a factor than ethanol. Eventually all will need replaced but it could be 20 years. Alcohol has been put in gasoline since the 80's so it may not be quite the death sentence everyone thinks. Interesting point about insurance companies. As usual they dictate everything. I have emailed Hatteras but they have not replied. It has only been a few days though.

 

[SeaSwick]

Has anyone contacted hatteras for guidance on tanks. I suspect they will be mum for legal reasons. My feeling is time is more of a factor than ethanol. Eventually all will need replaced but it could be 20 years.

I e-Mailed Hatt about how to open the tanks of my gas-engined 41, and got an immediate reply on how to do it. I also asked what they recommended as a coating vs ethanol (which was the reason for opening the tanks). I even mentioned two vinyl-ester products I was considering. It wasn't addressed, or even acknowledged in the reply. Really can't blame them.

There are a number of Hatterai (Hatterases?) on Long Island & Ct that have detonated their engines from, unknowingly, getting e-10. These were not stumbling, sputtering breakdowns from clogging fuel systems due to ethanol's detergent properties that "clean" out years of accumulated gunk. These were valve stem snapping, connecting rod bending sudden engine seize-ups from the desolved polyester resins of the fuel tanks delivered to the engines.

There are also some pictures around of opened Hatteras fuel tanks showing large areas of fiberglass mat, looking like they've just been applied dry, waiting for resin. The e-10 had completely desolved away the original resin. Not after years or seasons, but tankfulls.

ADDRESSING THE E-10 TANK ISSUE IS NOT A LONG TERM PROBLEM

 

[sammidog]

Seaswick, What years are these boats you describe? I bet none after 1980. Well, no, I won't bet but suspect. LOL

 

[SeaSwick]

You are correct. All these were prior to the 1980's hulls.

 

[sammidog]

Seaswick, have you opened your tank yet? How did it look? I've heard people say you can take a look under your carbs for residue etc. Have you done this? I am seriously considering buying a 32 ft sportfish or convertible but am very concerned about the tank issue. I guess the thing to do would be to get a price to replace the tank and factor that into the asking price-- or just forget Hatteras altogether. I also like the Blackfin 29. I suspect hatteras really doesn't care much about 25 year old boats or older and is not interested in helping us out. This sounds critical of Hatteras and it is not meant to be. I was trying to point out that their market segment is boats above 50 ft now and costing upwards of $1 million+. Most of us will not be "moving up" to those boats so they don't need to be helpful to us mere "mortals".

 

[captddis]

Actually Hatteras is the only company who will help you with a older boat. They still have all the info on all the older boats. Instead of E mailing pick up the phone and call the service dept. I guarantee you will be helped.

 

[Don Charland]

Bought my1965 34 SC on the eastern shore of Chesapeak Bay in Maryland Where they use ethanol. Luckily I had a fuel water seperator deep in the bilge which captured what looked like molasses. Once I got that fuel out of her and daily filter changes and sometimes twice daily seperator drainings, things cleaned up. She is still running. I am with Ford in that I will coat my tanks prior to repower.

 

[SeaSwick]

Actually Hatteras is the only company who will help you with a older boat. They still have all the info on all the older boats. Instead of E mailing pick up the phone and call the service dept. I guarantee you will be helped.

Captddis is 110% correct. I've spoken to Hatt (Jen Carmen & Chuck Cammeron) on several occasions over the last 4 years I've owned my 1960 41', as well as e-Mailing. Anything they were unsure of was never dismissed with anything close to "You're out'a luck... stop bothering us." It was always with a "Gee, we'd like to figure this out as well," attitude and suggestions where to turn next, and often follow up communications with other ideas/info.

However, the Company has practically ZERO detailed information on the 1st generation Hatts like mine (1960-63) pointing me to Tom Slane of Slane Marine, the founder's son, for that info, but I haven't communicated with them. Hatteras 'thinks' Tom has all the original construction drawings, schedules, schematics, etc. Slane Marine (SlaneMarine.com) is doing fantastic upgrades on older Hatt hulls & my "budget" to bring my old gal back to life would barely cover the telephone company bill.

Actually, vanity has kept me from calling them, even tho' I have some saloon to trunkcabin structural connection questions...

I did purchase the owners manual for the 1964-1971 Hatteras 41's from Hatteras & it has been a God-send. 90% of the systems details are the same. It includes, among other things, all the different wire & control schematics for the different helm configurations for both diesel & gas engines (Flybridge w/saloon helms, flybridge w/cockpit controls, Flybridge w/saloon & cockpit controls) each on separate, large fold out sheets clearly showing the numbered wires & the corresponding key-codes.

I used to sleep with it under my pillow...

It also details the water systems, graving points, grounding strip locations, A/C & generator installations, hydraulic helm layout & info. ALL INDEXED & CHAPTERED in a 3-ring binder!

I haven't opened my tanks yet. That starts (immed!) ofter the New Year. Still making living arrangements for 4-6 weeks out there. It needs to be 100% concentration, effort & itching -- the rest of the world be damned!

I will be posting the whole process in the Owners Gallery. The info I've picked up there has been tremendous and no words can thank those who've shared their work enough!

 

[sammidog]

"I e-Mailed Hatt about how to open the tanks of my gas-engined 41, and got an immediate reply on how to do it. I also asked what they recommended as a coating vs ethanol (which was the reason for opening the tanks). I even mentioned two vinyl-ester products I was considering. It wasn't addressed, or even acknowledged in the reply. Really can't blame them."
From your original post it seemed like you thought they were less than helpful. Glad to see they are. I really like a Hatteras 32 in Ohio that is for sale but think I will stay away from it given the fiberglass tank issue.

 

[Maynard Rupp]

"I e-Mailed Hatt about how to open the tanks of my gas-engined 41, and got an immediate reply on how to do it. I also asked what they recommended as a coating vs ethanol (which was the reason for opening the tanks). I even mentioned two vinyl-ester products I was considering. It wasn't addressed, or even acknowledged in the reply. Really can't blame them."
From your original post it seemed like you thought they were less than helpful. Glad to see they are. I really like a Hatteras 32 in Ohio that is for sale but think I will stay away from it given the fiberglass tank issue.

I wouldn't wory about that. The 32 Hats were all newer than the problem boats. IMHO the only good tank material is fiberglass. Go look at the rusted out tanks in Trojans, or the corroded ones in Egg Harbors.

 

[sammidog]

Below is a response from Hatteras:
"Dear Jim,

Thank you for your e-mail and concern. Hatteras learned in 1983 that
ethanol may be available and used in our gasoline powered boats and that
it would be in the future. We immediately made a change in the resin by
adding a component to combat the effects of ethanol in the tanks of our
boats being produced with gasoline power. The change was made in
mid-year 1983. If you can provide me with the HIN number of the
Hatteras you are considering, I can check to see if it would or would
not be effected. As far as we know to date, none of the boats with the
tanks with the additive in the resin have failed, just the tanks built
before the change.

There are companies looking at bladder tanks, that can be installed
inside the original tanks, which would stop the degredation of the resin
caused by the ethanol.

We are not actively looking at any type of resolution, as we are a new
boat manufacturer and our production schedules at present just will not
allow any time or manpower to work on designing new tanks, or any other
type solution, and doubt we will in the future.

Sorry I cannot help any further than I have, but please forward me the
HIN number of the boat you are considering, or any other Hatteras you
may be considering and I will check it and respond to you."

Nice response and all that I could really ask for.
Sammi

 

[OVERSPRAY]

I think there is no reason why we couldn't re-coat the inside of our existing tanks, But I think it will be very difficult without having the entire top of the tank completly removed. They are two pieces and when I had mine on the floor of my shop I noted how it could be separated. but not an easy task. I just don't see how one could be absolutley sure he or she coated 100% of all surfaces inside without full access. all it would take is 1/2 square inch of uncoated area and you would have a potential delamination area. I just completed my back deck and the thought of buzzing sawz-alls wakes me up at night sweating. for know run whatcha brung,

its only temporary.....unless it works

 

[Maynard Rupp]

I was glad to read that letter from Hatteras. Glad because our 36C is a 1986 and therfore should have the right stuff so to speak. I am sorry for others whose boats are older. It also looks, from another thread, that the diesel powered boats could have the same problem soon. For the life of me I don't understand why anyone is adding Ethanol to any fuel, but I especially can't imagine why you would ever add it to Diesel fuel. Sky, you are the fuel guy, what is going on here?

 

[SKYCHENEY]

You've heard it all before--Politics . Ethanol is politically correct because it seems to the ignorant eye that it solves all of our ills. It helps the farmer, it makes us less dependent on foreign oil, etc. The problem is that it is not economically viable and therefore we are subsidizing it at the refiner level and then putting more tax incentives out there for the retailer to install equipment to dispense it.

The other issue that makes it look good is that since MTBE is such a carcinigen, it is now the replacement for that "clean air" additive too. So, you can blame this mess on the lobbyists for the farmers and ADM et al or you can blame it on the politicians or you can blame it on the environmentalists. Take your pick. Anyway you look at it we all lose. We pay the higher prices for stuff we don't want.

 

[Boatsb]

Here is a question that hasn't been asked ( I hope )

If adding ethanol reduces the BTU output of a fuel ( gas or diesel) how will we be able to calibrate the injection systems if we use differant mixes of fuel? We cant just push the same amount of fuel no matter the octane or cetane as that will be wasteful and would pollute. Will we need to test the fuel in the tanks each trip to adjust the injectors and fuel systems?