Experts ?

[MikeP]

I decided to post this based on the ongoing inverter "discussion."

What makes anyone an expert on anything? Is it years spent doing a particular thing? Is it reading about it? Is it the ability to refer someone to appropriate documents? Is it completing your first installation of an item?

I've been on this site since '04. So I've seen who has come and gone at least since then. For those of you fairly new to the sight, I wouldn't be too concerned about the alleged experts who have allegedly left. I don't see any reduction in the quality of information available on any subject related to these boats. In fact, I'd say the opposite.

One "expert" who used to be here a lot and answered questions with great authority was ASKING the same questions a year prior on the Boat Diesel site. Now, IMO, there's nothing really wrong with that - after all, how do you learn anything without asking questions or just diving in and trying it yourself.

Another "expert" posted his recommendations re painting gained from his "years of experience." Turned out that the entire posting - several paragraphs - were copied/pasted from the paint manufacturer's web site (without any reference to that). So is he an expert? My gut reaction was quite the opposite but OTOH, it WAS good information and if you followed "his" advice, you would be fine.

There has been much made of how installing a lot of whatevers makes a person an expert. True - at installing whatevers. That is not the same as using whatevers. Installing and operating/using something is two different things. If I want to know if inverter X and batteries Y will do what I want, I want to hear from somebody who uses that configuration on a regular basis in real life. That may be a person who can't even change a light bulb but his experience using the system makes him an expert in that aspect. OTOH, if a person makes a living and is an "expert" at let's say, rebuilding Ford motors, would you consider him to rebuild your Chevy motor? If the answer to that is "no" then if you want an Outback inverter installed, you wouldn't want somebody who has never installed an Outback inverter to do it. That approach would seem silly to me but that's just me. Someone else may feel completey different

"Expert" is in the eye of the beholder. But no one should get upset if someone disagrees with their opinion..

 

[Boatsb]

Mike some people design and implement systems for a living. An inverter, generator or even a switch is a part of that system and not a stand alone device in most applications. Electricity is not a simple DIY process in fact the licensing required for it is staggering.

Low voltage as in AV and security allows for some 110 volt AC installation too
High voltage is quite another science as it goes over the voltage we commonly use at home or in our boats.
Marine especially for inspected vessels and our government is even more specific in what is allowable and not.


Mike if you built ford motors then you each of the sub systems like electrical and fuel. Holly vs carter vs Rochester comes to mind. If someone only drives the car and have no technical understanding the installation of a carb may not be impossible but I bet it is done by the book at the most basic level in the supplies instructions. the driver is not an expert technician. he is an operator and may not even be able to provide correct technical feedback but only anecdotal feedback based on a less than optimized installation.

Don't try to speak to both sides like a politician. Its not becoming and it certainly does not serve anyone buy the politician.

By the way different manufacturers of inverters make different quality and featured products. Knowing how to properly design and install the inverter into the system is dependent on these features. The more capable the inverter the more elegant the install. Thats why we use specific ones for more integrated solutions and not the outback and xanterex very often.

 

[Avenger]

IMHO (and that's Humble, of course I'm being honest) I think the problem we're seeing here isn't so much about experience vs sources. It's entirely about egos.

When we share information here we're supposed to be doing our best to provide accurate information. Doing otherwise undermines the value of the technical side of this site. The problem rears it's head when someone posts something that may have some some factual errors, discrepancies, or is just plain opinion. Then when those who are concerned try to clarify or point out errors the other party gets defensive and tempers flare.

I'm not going to try to say it's as simple as that, because I've been here almost as long as Mike and I know who the players are as well. There are some who badly want to be the guru of something. And there are people who have years of experience, or training in a field that will try to correct mistakes or misinformation to preserve the technical value of the forum and don't really appreciate an argument instead of a discussion. I'm also quite aware that we've also been playing together long enough that there are some personal vendettas, cliques and general distaste among a few members. There are also some complaints about how the forum itself has handled a number of situations.

The best I can suggest here is that we all try to remember that we're supposed to be helping each other, and producing the best information we can. There's nothing wrong with offering input as long as a reader can qualify that information. So if you installed an inverter on your boat and want to say "here's what I did" don't make it sound like you've installed hundreds and make a blanket statement about something. If you found a website with information that can help someone by all means share it, but don't C&P it so that it looks like your own. And for Pete's sake, if someone tells you you've made a mistake check and make sure you did not before you answer. I've made errors and typos here. I have no problem with saying oops and fixing it. Bad information makes all your information suspect and does not help the forum. And if you're sure you're right stick to facts.

There's an old saying in law that goes something like; "When the facts are on your side, pound the facts. When the law is on your side, pound the law. When neither is on your side, pound the table." We need less pounding of the table here.

 

[Boatsb]

Hey Scroddy I hear you think you know something about diesel carborators and such.

 

[Avenger]

I don't know nada about diesel carburetors.

See? It's not hard to admit it if I don't know something. The Admiral gives me lots of practice.

 

[Pascal]

One thing to keep in mind is that these forums are mostly anonymous... When i read a post I usually don't know the person writing it, their background, experience, etc and even if I have met that poster in person it is still no guarantee that he is an "expert". Because someone has been in business for years, doesn't make them experts...

Most of us have seen the handiwork of some of these experts, professionals. Even if only in the boat buying process, how many of us have come across romex wiring, wire nuts, and many other stupid things done by $100 an hour pros? A few years back my genset ingested water... 3 different manufacturer approved mechanic worked on it none of them noticing the lack of antinsyphon loop was the issue. Hey, I m sure if these guys were posting here they d be considered experts... Same with the reputable surveyor and the mechanic of the 69 footer I delivered last week and didn't notice the 2 out of 3 busted clamps on the shaft log hose. Hey, they ve been in business for 20 years, they must be experts...

This is an owners forum, nothing more. Information provided by members shoild be considered anecdotal. We are all owners first although some may have a professional background related to a question. I am reluctant to think of anyone as an expert, except maybe Roger due to his long time involvement at Hatteras.

The only thing I would consider to be fairly "guaranteed", as much as it can be anyway and subject to common sense, would be actual data coming from the manufacturer of the system being discussed. Anything else should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[saltshaker]

Very well said Derek. I've been here since Sams first started the forum back in '99. Much has changed over the years and members have come and gone. I do believe we have lost some valuable members over the years. Some have moved on to other interest, others left out of frustration and some left because of the way things were handled when things got out of hand. Some of the most valuable technical members won't post at all or are very reluctant to do so. I would love to see all the personal BS go away and for those members to return.

 

[Boatsb]

between the PO of my boat and the expurts that work for Angela and pascal I guess thats enoughproof that no one can do it right.

pascal just remember not everyone has complained about the quality of the work they received. too many have complained about the prices they pay but more often the quality is fine. Miami may be different but I know of several professional companies in my area that do great work. One of them was bashed by a member for charging for his travel time but others stood up for him and explained its the cost of getting a good mechanic out to your vessel. You get what you pay for in most cases.

Now please stop bashing the pros who do things like this every day. You have your opinions they have hands on experience. You did it once or twice. They do it all the time.

 

[Boatnut]

"The only thing I would consider to be fairly "guaranteed", as much as it can be anyway and subject to common sense, would be actual data coming from the manufacturer of the system being discussed. Anything else should be taken with a grain of salt". Quoted by pascal.

pascal I think I'll save the above quote to paste in the next time you tell someone how to do something.

What people seem to forget is the manufacturer has to spec things keeping in mind that people with no knowledge of their product or no knowledge of how it works much less how to install it, are going to install their product. There are other safe, cost effective, and sometimes better ways to do it. The average joe, does not have the knowledge or understanding to be aware of the accepted alternative ways. This appears to be a concept that is foreign to you.

Your tort reply to my statement about wire size being different in an engine room than not in the engine room, shows your inability to listen and learn, you prefer to argue your position. You have been incorrect on several occasions in this forum, and everytime someone questions what you say, you get all testy and defensive. You have never, (unlike several others) appologized nor admitted your mistake.

Just for the heck of it, although it will mean nothing to you as per you above quote. I have been involved with the design of inverters, I currently spec, install, and service inverters larger than any inverter used in any pleasure boat, in the hospital and medical environment.

You state you often do not know the background of people you communicate with on a forum, or even meet in person. How can you say they are either qualified or not, much less question their suggestions.

Sorry for the rant but some things need to be said even at the risk of offending someone.

 

[Avenger]

I would politely suggest that if one constantly bashes people in the trades they shouldn't be surprised when members who are in the business become hostile in responding.

There are bad actors and mistakes made in every profession but painting with such a broad brush is a disservice to all. We are lucky enough to have a significant knowledge base here with people from many fields and backgrounds that can help out with a lot of things on a much higher level than merely the anecdotal. Alienating them deprives the forum of benefit of that knowledge and we all lose as a result.

 

[MikeP]

""When the facts are on your side, pound the facts. When the law is on your side, pound the law. When neither is on your side, pound the table.""

I had not heard that...excellent!


BoatsB - It may sound political to "support" both sides but if both sides have some valid points, it seems to me that the smart thing to do is to consider the opposing points, do further research if necessary, and make a decision. But I guess saying that is political as well.

I will readily admit that if you have complete confidence in some person's expertise, then you may choose to automatically accept whatever they say on a particular subject. There are certain subjects/people here who I do that with - just take what they say and do it. I don't care to say who they/the subjects are and throw additional gas (or, more likely, nitromethane) on the fire!

 

[Angela]

between the PO of my boat and the expurts that work for Angela and pascal I guess thats enoughproof that no one can do it right.

In an upbeat tone, let me cry out, “Hey, that’s not fair!” You make it sound like I don’t believe anyone can do anything right.

I live in Miami, and with the exception of a few idiot AC techs that I’ve weeded through, I have found quality marine folks to work on my boat now. I have a competent AC person who is the owner of the factory here - he’s the sole person I’ve met locally who actually knows this one devil of a modulating AC system I have (which is behaving nicely right now, I have to admit!). I also have an awesome yard guy who will also come to my boat to do some of that heavy lifting work that can be done in the slip which doesn’t create a mess for my neighbors, and he sometimes goes above and beyond what he is asked to do on his own initiative. He never charges me more than he quoted for a job, but when he does something necessary (that “while you’re in there” thing) that I didn’t ask him to do because I didn’t know there was a lurking problem, and for which he doesn’t bill me, I throw a few more Ben Franklins his way because I feel it’s the right thing to do, especially when I see a can of worms opened and think would could have happened “if”.... Heck, his son even fixed a floor hatch in my engine room while waiting for his dad to finish something simply because it bugged him. They are good people.

My DD mechanic - he’s a real gem, and it scares me to think what I’ll do when he retires to North Carolina. I found him on the first pick - someone here recommended him.

So, for the record...I do believe there are folks around here that can and do get it right and I'm comfy with my peeps here. It just took me a little time to find them, that’s all. It’s not like I lived here all my life and knew the who’s who around here. It was more like trial by fire for my air conditioning needs.

Now, I just need a good marine electrician to install my new battery charger and inverter - that’s way over my head to the point that won’t even ask “how to” on that one, and Ed won’t be back to the boat for a little while.

Just wanted to set the record straight since my name was mentioned and didn't want be lumped into a group of "nobody can do it right"...now, carry on...

 

[Boatsb]

Expect to pay between $80-100/hour for anyone good. Sometimes more. If you have not bought it yet work with them and tbeymay sunrise you. I charge less to install what I sell than cse.

 

[JimmyB]

Aside from Angela, have we reached a point to know who has the biggest p###s

 

[krush]

Funny thing about "experts" is that they are everywhere...and they are even more everywhere and prominent on the internet!

The more words one types, the more knowledgeable he/she obviously is Lulz

 

[GaryNW]

I wanted to resist this thread, and I tried. But here goes. The experts I have known were people able to torture supposed experts with relentless challenges. I was the project engineer on a Alaska limit seiner in the early 80's. Our buyer was a 28 year old highliner in southeast Ak, a salmon millionare having his 2nd new boat built. Every supplier wanted his business because of his reputation and the advertsing clout. I saw him tear apart the engine supplier, Twin Disc rep, refrigeration guy (best in the area), etc, etc. Always polite, but never accepting the "party line". You had to have the correct explanations or he would make your life hell. Some lost money dealing with this guy because of the redos, but they all learned. Sent us a picture of a 10,000 lb hoist of sockeye in his brailing boom on his first season in Prince William Sound. It was a down year, and he had just spent 275K to buy the permit (on top of a new boat)! Expert fisherman or expert boatman, wild success speaks for itself.
Gary

 

[34Hatt]

Funny thing about "experts" is that they are everywhere...and they are even more everywhere and prominent on the internet!

The more words one types, the more knowledgeable he/she obviously is Lulz

That is the difference between a Expert and a Expurt!

No those are not typo's

 

[sportfish 45]

I decided to post this based on the ongoing inverter "discussion."

What makes anyone an expert on anything? Is it years spent doing a particular thing? Is it reading about it? Is it the ability to refer someone to appropriate documents? Is it completing your first installation of an item?

I've been on this site since '04. So I've seen who has come and gone at least since then. For those of you fairly new to the sight, I wouldn't be too concerned about the alleged experts who have allegedly left. I don't see any reduction in the quality of information available on any subject related to these boats. In fact, I'd say the opposite.

One "expert" who used to be here a lot and answered questions with great authority was ASKING the same questions a year prior on the Boat Diesel site. Now, IMO, there's nothing really wrong with that - after all, how do you learn anything without asking questions or just diving in and trying it yourself.

Another "expert" posted his recommendations re painting gained from his "years of experience." Turned out that the entire posting - several paragraphs - were copied/pasted from the paint manufacturer's web site (without any reference to that). So is he an expert? My gut reaction was quite the opposite but OTOH, it WAS good information and if you followed "his" advice, you would be fine.

There has been much made of how installing a lot of whatevers makes a person an expert. True - at installing whatevers. That is not the same as using whatevers. Installing and operating/using something is two different things. If I want to know if inverter X and batteries Y will do what I want, I want to hear from somebody who uses that configuration on a regular basis in real life. That may be a person who can't even change a light bulb but his experience using the system makes him an expert in that aspect. OTOH, if a person makes a living and is an "expert" at let's say, rebuilding Ford motors, would you consider him to rebuild your Chevy motor? If the answer to that is "no" then if you want an Outback inverter installed, you wouldn't want somebody who has never installed an Outback inverter to do it. That approach would seem silly to me but that's just me. Someone else may feel completey different

"Expert" is in the eye of the beholder. But no one should get upset if someone disagrees with their opinion..

Mike your contradicting yourself. You say you don't feel there is anything wrong with a person posting with authority on a topic he was posting questions about on another forum. Then you say if you want info on inverter battery combinations you want to hear from someone who uses it in real life. I don't think there is anything wrong with posting what you know about a topic regardless of how little that might be. I do think you should qualify your information with some description of your experience so as not to miss lead the person seeking advice.

I haven't been here very long but I have taken the time to read through some old threads. I think I know the boat diesel guy your referring to above. That person has very good communication skills so good that someone reading his words could easily be fooled into thinking that he's actually done this for many years. When his bad info was corrected by a real expert who actually does the work and knows what he's talking about to many times communication skills won over the facts. So a well written BS artist ends up gaining the trust of many. A not so well written experienced technician is made to look like he's wrong. So the guy with the good info stops posting and bad information goes UN challenged. That doesn't sound like a winning combination for any forum.

 

[jim rosenthal]

"Sorry for the rant but some things need to be said even at the risk of offending someone."

No- that's not the case. And for those of you who don't know Mike personally, his original post in this thread was not for political purpose. We have some members whose dislike of other members is so reflexive and knee-jerk that the minute they see a post by someone they've already decided they don't like, they start looking for reasons to bash that post and the member who posted it. This is embarrassing and shameful behavior. Pointing out that there are almost always multiple valid points of view on any topic is not "politics"; it's practical, it's realistic, and it's decent. And simple decency is something that is sadly lacking at times on this forum.

If you want to disagree with someone's point of view, fine. Do so. But don't use it as a point of departure for a personal attack on them, who they are, where they come from, what language they speak, their boating experience, etc. Keep it on topic, keep it civil, and keep it professional. And understand that in boating, like most things in the world, there is virtually always more than one correct way of doing things.

I'll also point out that Hatteras Yachts has built over seven thousand boats, of which better than ninety percent are still out there running around on their own bottoms. Most of these boats have owners, but they are not visible on this forum. We have a few dozen forum members who actively participate- I don't think we have many more than that, if any. And we have a lot of ex-members who found the atmosphere on this forum to be too hostile, too bitter, and just decided not to stick their neck out and risk getting their head chopped off. If this forum was a more civil public space, we'd have more members, we'd have a larger group of contributors, and the overall level of knowledge here would be increased. We've wondered, publicly on several occasions, why more Hatteras owners don't hang out here. Well- as a moderator who's tried to get other Hatteras owners to sign up and contribute their questions and knowledge, I can tell you: a lot of people perceive that this forum is not particularly welcoming to new members, and they don't want to risk getting flamed here. What we have here is not, in their opinion, worth the risk of getting verbally attacked in a public space, and they've told me so. It doesn't make me feel particularly good to hear that.

So: express your opinion, which is what this forum is for. Lend your advice and experience, please. Don't make it personal and don't pick fights, even if something that someone says annoys you. Take a deep breath, let it go by. See to it that this is a polite and welcoming place, and we'll be rewarded with greater participation and a larger group of interested Hatteras owners.

 

[MikeP]

"Mike your contradicting yourself."

Yes, I know. The problem for me is that my initial feeling is that sounding like you've done something for years when you haven't seems wrong BUT...if the information you are providing is good, what difference does it really make?

I do object to passing off someone else's published info as your own. That's just plagiarism. But good info is good info, wherever it came from. If I explain Relativity correctly (no, that can't actually happen), even if I just memorize Einstein's words and recite them, it's still correct information. I should state that the word's are Einsteins, not mine, but what difference does it actually make. Sort of like the paint "expert" I referred to previously - he copied the info of the paint site; everything he said was correct. I objected highly to the method but I couldn't argue with the information.