Ethanol Report by BOAT/US

[eze2bme]

Following is a copy of an article in this month's issue of BOAT/US magazine relating to ethanol and fiberglass tanks:

"Older fiberglass gas tanks may fail or cause engine damage when filled with gasoline formulated with ethanol, according to damage reports collected by BoatU.S.
BoatU.S. has learned of more than 30 cases of fiberglass gas tanks manufactured before the mid-1980s that produced an engine killing sludge or began leaking after being filled with 10% ethanol gasoline.
The investigation is ongoing, but it appears that 10% ethanol gasoline, which was introduced in the Long Island area to replace gas additive MTBE in late 2004, may be attacking the resins used in older fiberglass gas tanks. These tanks were standard equipment on some Hatteras and Bertram models and may be present on other boats of the same era. Diesel tanks are not affected.
The engine damage appears to be due to a tar-like substance - possibly from the chemical reaction between the resin and ethanol - causing hard black deposits that damage intake valves and push rods, ultimately destroying the engine. Early symptoms may include engine backfiring and hard or sluggish starting in which the engine turns over slowly. Affected engines may not reach their rated rprn.
Fuel filters have not captured the substance. The only way to know for certain is to pull the carburetor and inspect the underside for a black, gummy film.
BoatU.S. has also confirmed reports of tank wall failure in some of these tanks in which gasoline was found leaking into the bilge. At press time BoatU.S. was awaiting the results of laboratory experiments to determine the exact cause of the problem.
New York and Connecticut boat owners have reported the majority of problems, along with one owner in California. Ethanol and MTBE are used to oxygenate gas to reduce harmful emissions. MTBE has been banned in half the states.
Anyone who has experienced these problems should send details to BoatU.S. at cfort@boatus.com."

 

[MikeP]

As I said before on this subject - Boat US ought to be paying this website's sponsors for all the info BoatUS is publishing and representing as their own. They haven't done anything except read it all here first.


Per boat US "The investigation is ongoing..." Yeah? Who do you think is doing that investigation? The gas boat owners on this website! I'm eyeing a rather large soapbox but will take this opportunity to shut up now and walk away...

 

[Genesis]

Boat/US used to be one of my favorite organizations. They had reasonably-priced insurance and appeared to defend my interests.

In the last two years this has ceased to be the case. They now no longer defend my interests, purloin other people's work and do not give credit to its source, and have priced themselves totally out of the market insurance-wise.

BTW, Charter Lakes (insurance) moved their offices, which may be why you folks have had trouble reaching them. Their number is now 800-879-2248. Tell 'em Karl w/Gigabite sent you.

 

[Passages]

At least it appears Boat/US has taken our suggestion to fund some lab GC scans on the mystery sludge.
I am a bit miffed & vexed that WE identified the problem, began investigating on our dime, came up with preliminary diagnosis and got no recognition.

 

[captddis]

Ditto on Boat U/S. They no longer represent us . This became apparent in the early 90s when they fought the luxury tax and then supported the 50 cent a gallon DIESEL only tax. I think they are all sailors at BUS! Now the insurance rip off. Very few places honor the discounts either. I may even drop my membership.
As far as taking credit for others knowledge. It is rampant on the different forums. I have my advice stolen all the time . One individual will even place a later post above the previous answer to like like it was his idea. I guess if they are that much in need of having their ego buffed , so be it.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Maybe it is a good thing that "we" don't get credit for our research and insight. If they did credit this site for all of the great boating advice here, we would have every boater in the country registering for this site. What a mess that would be.

 

[34Hatt]

Sorry Guys but that is not True. Boat U.S has been doing their own Investigation. They have had people going around Interviewing the Owners with problems and going to Marina's. They are getting their own samples and data, it is true we where on this in the beginning but I know for a fact that Boat U.S was aware of the problem before the thread started. I was the one that told Jim with Salty it was time too start the thread after talking with many owners with the problems. One of the owners was someone that had already spoke to Boat U.S and said they where starting a Investigation.

 

[Genesis]

Yeah, I've had multiple marinas that are listed on their 'discount' list refuse to honor the discount, both on fuel and transient dockage.

FWIW I still maintain my membership, but as they're no longer competitive on insurance all they get from me is my towing membership - and until they change their tune, that's how its gonna stay....

 

[ELECTRA VI]

I received my annual insurance bill from BOAT U.S. the other day. To say the least, I was shocked. When I attended the U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary National Conference in September, I spoke with BOAT U.S. representatives about the insurance rate hike that hit me last year and was rescinded. They told me the rate hike had been approved by the PSC for this year. Well, I got my bill and it is exactly the same as last year with a letter stating they were happy to keep rates the same. I don't know what is going on here, but I am relieved to say the least. When I called some of the other brokerages recommended on the forum (Karl, I never did get ahold of Charter Lakes), they told me they couldn't touch me for even what the BOAT U.S. increase was to be. Just an FYI. I used to be a frequent shopper at BOAT U.S. stores, but lately, Boater's World has been much more competitive. All my electronics upgrades (three VHFs and two GPS's) have been purchased from Boater's World.
George

 

[anthd]

I think the biggest problem with this whole issue is that here we are in January and we still don't have any answers. Spring is around the corner . . . how long are we going to have to wait! Even if they come back and say to us that boats that have a particular production date are ok . . . how long before they make another change in fuel composition? We'll be going through this mess again. Will you feel comfortable with your family and friends onboard your boat . . . Will we even be able to insure our boats after this? I'm running out of patience!

 

[Genesis]

If we had a REAL effective lobbying organization (you know, how they sell themselves as the reason we should pay dues to them?) they'd work on getting that 50 cent/gallon DIESEL tax rescinded AND on solving the "cafeteria gasoline" problem once and for all.

There simply isn't a reason for it, it drives up prices for EVERYONE, it was why we had a huge problems this summer after the hurricanes AND heh - did anyone notice that the smog amounts didn't change this summer?

Guess what - after Katrina the requirements for the cafeteria gasoline nonsense were lifted. No smog issues reported.

The OTHER problem we have is the entire ethanol mess. Ethanol is more expensive than gasoline on a BTU basis - always has been, always will be because of farm price supports. We'd be BETTER OFF exporting the corn instead of making ethanol from it in terms of finances, and our engines would be better for it too.

If we want a REAL carbon-cycle neutral fuel we can have it - farm blue-green algae and make biodiesel from it, or perfect the new process that works with any biomass that they have going in Europe and overrule the ban on diesel car sales that some states have imposed. Bingo - problem solved for all of us - both boat owners and otherwise.

That's what we'd get from a REAL lobbying organization.

Judge accordingly if you are - or are not - obtaining anything of value here.

 

[67hat34c]

I also have been getting stuff from boatersworld, West Marine tends to be way more expensive. I also have been getting deals from Lewis Marine. Guys in the stores are more than happy to deal with you on price esp. if you are buying alot.

 

[spartonboat1]

I know most know this, but Boat/US stores should be gone or re-shingled to West Marine, as WM bought out the B/US relail arm...

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

the saga continues;

the latest boat us article is now confirming they are finding polyester resin compounds in their gas samples. it is also stating the black crud is "consistent with polyester resin", whatever that means.

another source joins the foray:

http://www.noreast.com/magazineissues/article.cfm?i=44&e=1&s=50&a=212

 

[Genesis]

If someone's got a GC/MS run with polyester resin in it from a fuel sample that would blow the door off this thing.

I don't do claims. I want to see the analysis.

 

[MikeP]

I agree with Genesis - I find this all kind of vague for an alleged scientific "analysis." I'm no scientist but I remember the "Scientific Method" from high school. THis whole things sounds too much like parties that have something to gain are adjusting the data, or at least manipulating the wording.

One thing in the article that I find interesting was the message that you need to be sure you get fuel at a major retailer Mobil, Exxon, etc to ensure you are getting the properly formulated fuel from the refinery.

This reflects a major misunderstanding of how fuel gets from the refinery to the gas/diesel pump in the first place. There aren't separate pipelines from say Louisiana to New York for each refinery. And, contrary to the implication, additives MUST be intentionally added locally depending on temperatures, air quality issues, etc. Furthermore, the fuel delivered to the Exxon station on LI is the same fuel delivered to the Shell station and to the Delta Station and to Achmet's Gas 'n Go. In fact, it is delivered in the same Mystic Oil truck on the same day.

If the article gets one item wrong, it's fair to assume that the rest is no better researched.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

I'm in the retail gas business (among other things) and I can confirm that MikeP996 has got it 100% correct. You are not going to get different fuel at different retail stores. It just isn't done that way. Besides, all gas/diesel has to conform to the same ASTM specifications. The weights and measures people in each state take random samples on a regular basis to confirm that the fuel is meeting these quality standards.

 

[Genesis]

Yep. We have one "gas" terminal around here that serves all the local stations, no matter what name is on the Marquee.

Lots of things wrong with that article.....

 

[Norm Mayer]

I have been teaching technicians the same info that Genesis is stating...The gas is typically the same across the board, with different stations getting identical fuel. However, once a tanker truck is loaded with fuel different brands will add various kinds and amounts of fuel conditioners and additives. The cheap stations put in the minimum legal amount of the cheapest additives money can buy. Better brands use better and more additives.
fwiw.
Norm Mayer aboard Runaround Sue

 

[SKYCHENEY]

When the fuel leaves the terminal it meets ASTM specs without adding a thing to it. Most brands add nothing to the fuel at all, but some do put an additive into their premium unleaded so that they can add a special brand name to that product such as "super-power" or something like that. As far as regular unleaded, it is so competitive at the retail level that everyone is just looking to cut costs. This is done by buying the cheapest fuel and, you guessed it, that means 10% ethanol blend. In Michigan, the stations don't have to post the content of the gas, just the octane, so no one knows if they are buying 100% gas or 10% ethanol. If I had to bet, though, I'd bet on the ethanol blend since the government is giving a 5 cent/gal rebate on that.