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Ethanol & Diesel (story in this month's Offshore)

  • Thread starter Thread starter dougl33
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Two boats, 50nm offshore.

One gas, one (old-school Detroit) diesel.

Both with engines running.

Now boat boats suffer a 100% electrical failure due to a primary DC system short.

Which boat do you want to be on? :rolleyes:
 
I KNOW I KNOW :p
 
The one with oars?
 
Boatsb said:
I have original 8v53 engines 40 years old and my transom doesn't soot either. No mufflers so I cant claim quiet but neither can most gas powered vessels.

I dont argue that Gas engines have their positives but for the larger HP and the torque needed for the bigger boats diesel is the only answer.

I was just taking the opportunity to poke some fun at you guys. Obviously I realise larger boats need far more power than available gas engines can produce. One problem diesel Hat owners will surely have to deal with in the future is the old Detroit engines when any blended fuels arrive. The other problem is the need for large, noisy exhausts so those 2 strokes can get their burnt fuel out. The noise and vibrations are neat though.
 
Noisy? I just put 10" exhaust pipes and mufflers the size of a small compact car in my boat. Anyway, I do love the sound of a hot rodded Detroit at the dock, no prissy engines here. I like being a Neandertal, "F" em' I do not apologize for being a fossil burning redneck. Hey lets' turn off the grid and let Darwin do some real work for a change. We have made it too easy for the weak to survive. LOL
 
Genesis said:
Two boats, 50nm offshore.

One gas, one (old-school Detroit) diesel.

Both with engines running.

Now boat boats suffer a 100% electrical failure due to a primary DC system short.

Which boat do you want to be on? :rolleyes:
Come on Karl...A 100% electrical failure on a well maintained Hat is about as likely as losing both engines on the jet airplane I fly at mid-Atlantic on a trip to Europe. If the boat is in bad enough shape that an electrical failure is possible, I will bet, for sure, that the DD owner hasn't done that myriad of maintainence and coolant flushes etc. that you DD guys keep talking about either. So that DD Hat will be sitting there very quiet also. I can always find enough battery power to operate a jumper wired ignition distributor, or I would surely hope I can. As a sailor, the only thing I worry about on our Hat is running out of fuel, not electricity. We need a mast and some sails eh?
 
Maynard,
You make it seem that the maintenance on a DD is overwhelming and it is not. We don't have to worry about plugs and wires and distributors. We don't have to rebuild or adjust carberators. It's just different things. No more work, just different work. And a badly neglected DD will still run better than a badly neglected gas engine. It may smoke and rumble and not get above idle, but it will still get you home. Karl's point is that you need fuel, air, and spark while a DD needs only fuel and air. That's one more item needed to keep you going, you have to admit.

This debate may never end, but let me say that if I run out of diesel, I can run on rum. Try that with your gas-burner. :D
 
Last edited:
Oh boy are YOU ever confident!

Heh guys, real life story here.

Three years ago, August. Sitting out in the canyon overnight swordfishing. Roughly 80nm offshore.

On the radar this nasty black blob starts approaching, and there's visible fire coming from it. Not good. Its 0-dark-30, so there's no point in pulling up and getting underway, really. There's a commercial shrimp boat working about 3-4nm off our port bow.

We rig for weather, get the lines in, and figure we're going to get wet. Big deal - we're out fishing, right? The storm doesn't look that bad - just one of those pop-up overnight boomers that happen almost every day in the summer.

Ok, so we're sitting in the cabin as the rain is falling, and suddenly there's a big white flash off the port bow, followed a few seconds later by a nasty-loud thunderclap.

The shrimp boat appears to be GONE.

Oh oh. I get up on the bridge and, tinkering with the clutter and gain, manage to see that the target is still there. Ok. But he's dark. VERY dark. The VHF elicits no response.

We crank up and saunter on over; something bad has obviously happened and well, I don't care for shrimpers, but I'm not going to leave a half-dozen guys or more out here to drift (or worse, float with all the shark food that'd end up in the water if they sank!)

We get to them and the boat is STILL dark. There are a few handheld flashlights and one handheld spot in operation. Now within short range I can raise them on a handheld VHF which they apparently had.

What happened? They were hit by lightning on their rigging. The bolt went into their main electrical panels and turned them into copper slush. They have zero electrical power and are uncertain if they will be able to recover any of it at this point.

However, they do have propulsion, because their mechanical main engine was running at the time, and it still is, of course. Pre-dawn light is only an hour or so away, and they decline assistance, stating that they're not taking water, have propulsion and have a working compass - they'll get home. They had a position fix before the event, so they know what bearing to steer to get back to their inlet, more or less.

Now what do you think would have been the situation had that main engine been one that required some sort of electronics (of any sort!) to run? Gas engine? Ok, is it old-style points or does it have an electronic module in it? Heh, guess what - all those electronics are slag after something like this happens!

Now, you say that's a 1 in a million eh?

I had a half-system DC failure offshore a number of years ago on Gigabite. It was caused by a failed alternator (this was prior to my installing the combiner!) on one side. Had that engine been electronic, it would have shut down. As it was, it was a minor inconvenience. Could I have fixed it offshore if I had to? Maybe (if I had the parts to fix the bad diode bridge in the alternator) but it most certainly was nicer to wait until the engine room was cool and I was able to work on it without burning the bejeezus out of my fingers and roasting in the 130F temps in the engine room besides!
 
SKYCHENEY said:
Maynard,
You make it seem that the maintenance on a DD is overwhelming and it is not. We don't have to worry about plugs and wires and distributors. We don't have to rebuild or adjust carberators. It's just different things. No more work, just different work. And a badly neglected DD will still run better than a badly neglected gas engine. It may smoke and rumble and not get above idle, but it will still get you home. Karl's point is that you need fuel, air, and spark while a DD needs only fuel and air. That's one more item needed to keep you going, you have to admit.

This debate may never end, but let me say that if I run out of diesel, I can run on rum. Try that with your gas-burner. :D
Geeee Sky...I thought you guys could run those DDs on the exhaust from the farmer's bull, If you know what I mean.
 
Genesis said:
Oh boy are YOU ever confident!

Heh guys, real life story here.

Three years ago, August. Sitting out in the canyon overnight swordfishing. Roughly 80nm offshore.

On the radar this nasty black blob starts approaching, and there's visible fire coming from it. Not good. Its 0-dark-30, so there's no point in pulling up and getting underway, really. There's a commercial shrimp boat working about 3-4nm off our port bow.

We rig for weather, get the lines in, and figure we're going to get wet. Big deal - we're out fishing, right? The storm doesn't look that bad - just one of those pop-up overnight boomers that happen almost every day in the summer.

Ok, so we're sitting in the cabin as the rain is falling, and suddenly there's a big white flash off the port bow, followed a few seconds later by a nasty-loud thunderclap.

The shrimp boat appears to be GONE.

Oh oh. I get up on the bridge and, tinkering with the clutter and gain, manage to see that the target is still there. Ok. But he's dark. VERY dark. The VHF elicits no response.

We crank up and saunter on over; something bad has obviously happened and well, I don't care for shrimpers, but I'm not going to leave a half-dozen guys or more out here to drift (or worse, float with all the shark food that'd end up in the water if they sank!)

We get to them and the boat is STILL dark. There are a few handheld flashlights and one handheld spot in operation. Now within short range I can raise them on a handheld VHF which they apparently had.

What happened? They were hit by lightning on their rigging. The bolt went into their main electrical panels and turned them into copper slush. They have zero electrical power and are uncertain if they will be able to recover any of it at this point.

However, they do have propulsion, because their mechanical main engine was running at the time, and it still is, of course. Pre-dawn light is only an hour or so away, and they decline assistance, stating that they're not taking water, have propulsion and have a working compass - they'll get home. They had a position fix before the event, so they know what bearing to steer to get back to their inlet, more or less.

Now what do you think would have been the situation had that main engine been one that required some sort of electronics (of any sort!) to run? Gas engine? Ok, is it old-style points or does it have an electronic module in it? Heh, guess what - all those electronics are slag after something like this happens!

Now, you say that's a 1 in a million eh?

I had a half-system DC failure offshore a number of years ago on Gigabite. It was caused by a failed alternator (this was prior to my installing the combiner!) on one side. Had that engine been electronic, it would have shut down. As it was, it was a minor inconvenience. Could I have fixed it offshore if I had to? Maybe (if I had the parts to fix the bad diode bridge in the alternator) but it most certainly was nicer to wait until the engine room was cool and I was able to work on it without burning the bejeezus out of my fingers and roasting in the 130F temps in the engine room besides!

I know you have a point, Karl. I am just trying to get folks to realise that gas engines are not the kiss of death. They really do move the smaller Hats along just fine and are a whole lot more economical thanyou folks seem to think. Our Florida trip netted an overall fuel burn of 13.2gph. That isn't so bad and these gas engines are a bunch cheaper to maintain and overhaul. In the great lakes, you almost can't find a boat under 45' with diesels. Our oil changes need 7 qts. in each engine and a $4.00 oil filter. We could throw both of our engines in the ocean, buy two brand new ones, and still be nowhere near the cost of an overhaul on one DD.
 
Or you could have a pair of 671n's and run them for your entire lifetime and have zero overhauls. That is probably the best option of all.
 
I feel the same way as you Maynard. When I bought my boat I was glad it was a gasser. I am just barely able to afford the boat as it is and just the thought of having to replace a diesel or two would put me out of boating for good. That was before I started reading about all the maintenance and potential grenades going off. I can see the need if you put 200 hours a year on it or fished the canyons but I just operate at trawler speed and gunkhole around the bays. Doing about 50 hours a year should last a long time too.
Love my boat!
 
Ford, chevy, dodge. 9mm vs .45 ACP, gas vs diesel. Pick your poison and drink it. LOL at least we can agree on Hatteras. LOL :D
 
Maynard Rupp said:
I know you have a point, Karl. I am just trying to get folks to realise that gas engines are not the kiss of death. They really do move the smaller Hats along just fine and are a whole lot more economical thanyou folks seem to think. Our Florida trip netted an overall fuel burn of 13.2gph. That isn't so bad and these gas engines are a bunch cheaper to maintain and overhaul. In the great lakes, you almost can't find a boat under 45' with diesels. Our oil changes need 7 qts. in each engine and a $4.00 oil filter. We could throw both of our engines in the ocean, buy two brand new ones, and still be nowhere near the cost of an overhaul on one DD.
Oh I know Maynard.

If I had gassers on a boat I intended to take WAY out there I'd have two completely separate battery systems (or more!) with a way to jump things across so I always had power, and if possible, I'd have an extra ECU or whatever the engine needed to run in a nice drybox not connected to anything.

I don't mind gas engines - really - in boats. The explosion risk is overrated provided you use your sniffer before starting them, and for boats of an appropriate size they're WAY cheaper than diesels to install, maintain and replace. Hell I can buy a CRATE engine - brand new - for about $5-6k. You can barely buy cylinder kits for a Detroit for that money. It'll be a cold day in hell before you burn enough gas to make up the difference.

My biggest issue right now with gas is the ethanol problem. We don't have it here - yet - but when we do its going to suck. Poly tanks are about the only solution and they're not available in truly big sizes - my little boat has one, but its 120 gallons and that's about as big as they come.
 
Originally Posted by Maynard Rupp
I know you have a point, Karl. I am just trying to get folks to realise that gas engines are not the kiss of death. They really do move the smaller Hats along just fine and are a whole lot more economical thanyou folks seem to think.

This is true with the kiss of death I know boaters that if their trip to the beach is 30 mins its long. Now that a coulpe time a season would not be good for a Diesel I don't think it would even get to temp :o .

The economical part I have to disagree unless you consider burning 50 % more okay. True story here just this past fall did a trip with Magic Hat a 1967 34c the boat is 3 hull # away from mine. It has 454s with carbs for power both in top notch shape. So the boats are real close together with the type of gear, funiture, generators, Inverters and battery. He burned 45% more fuel then me. I was not running in my sweet spot cause I had to back down some so that we could stay together. He has talked about repower to Diesel I told him he was crazy he is almost 70 years old, motors run great and like Karl said all those $$$ you have to burn a lot of fuel to make it back. He does about 50 hrs a season these days so it would not happen. So Maynard I agree they do you their place for sure but like you said in a smaller boat, how many 454's do you need to make Sky's boat go :D
 
Karl, You're right about complete electrical failures. I've been on three sailboats racing when we were struck by lighting. Nothing and I mean nothing was saved in any case. 1st time we were 50 miles off the coast of Maine and the polycarbonate covers on the instraments turned white. Third time was going to Bermuda about 400 miles offshore. Fortunatly we had sails. I have a Hat with gas but only use it like Beckytec.Coastal not offshore. Wouldn't even think of taking her 50 miles off with the gas engines.
 
Man, and sailboats have really good lightning grounds...every one of them has the mast grounded to that huge chunk of lead in the keel, and it's a straight run which is what the doctor ordered with lightning...no bends wherever possible.

I spent some money to really lightning safe my boat, but I'm not harboring any illusions about saving devices -- just people.
 
Not to hijack the thread, but Paul, I'm curious what it was that you did to reduce lightning risk (email/pm/new thread if you'd like to preserve this thread). Thanks.

Rick
 
Me too. Start a new one.
 
34Hatt said:
This is true with the kiss of death I know boaters that if their trip to the beach is 30 mins its long. Now that a coulpe time a season would not be good for a Diesel I don't think it would even get to temp :o .

The economical part I have to disagree unless you consider burning 50 % more okay. True story here just this past fall did a trip with Magic Hat a 1967 34c the boat is 3 hull # away from mine. It has 454s with carbs for power both in top notch shape. So the boats are real close together with the type of gear, funiture, generators, Inverters and battery. He burned 45% more fuel then me. I was not running in my sweet spot cause I had to back down some so that we could stay together. He has talked about repower to Diesel I told him he was crazy he is almost 70 years old, motors run great and like Karl said all those $$$ you have to burn a lot of fuel to make it back. He does about 50 hrs a season these days so it would not happen. So Maynard I agree they do you their place for sure but like you said in a smaller boat, how many 454's do you need to make Sky's boat go :D

I don't think a jet engine would make Sky's boat go fast. I don't think I would want to be aboard that boat at 45 knots. I disagree about the fuel burn. We have Navman flow meters and all the calculated readouts. Our long trip was 234 hours so we have a very good handle on the fuel burn. My other son has a 1986 32' express Hat. His boat has 3208 Cats at 300 hp. He burns some more fuel at all speeds except 7 knots than our gas 36 does. Both boats are from the same designer,(Jim Wyne). I hear all these stories about gas consumption that is high and have to wonder if these engines are set up correctly. As you know, gas engines are pretty easy to get way off and not realise it. I am an old race car engine builder and our 454s are at top notch setup. Those quadrajunk carbs have to be right or you pour gas in. Timing, dwell etc. are all critical.
 

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