Ethanol & Diesel (story in this month's Offshore)

[Genesis]

SVO has significant coking issues - I would not run it in marine engines.

Biodiesel made from blue-green algae, on the other hand not only doesn't but the yield is incredibly high, making it a viable true replacement fuel.

 

[Boss Lady]

Karl,

I know some guys making biodiesel from used vegetable oil, the process is simple and seperates the glycerin from the vegetable oil, during the carbon chain breaking reaction process, the glycerin is drained off and the biodiesel is ready for use, if you want it to meet federal standards a final washing step eliminates any soap residue. I know another old fart who has been running SVO in a Toyota truck for 20 years. He keeps it in a heated garage in the wintertime. I do know that most injector systems would need a heated fuel system to reduce viscosity to the same flowability as diesel fuel. Then there is Thermal Depolymerization, one plant has been built to convert turkey renderings to biodiesel. What process would be used to convert algea to biodiesel?

 

[Genesis]

Blue-green algae is extremely high in oil content - its the oil that is extracted and converted.

 

[Avenger]

Offshore just printed a correction on p. 10 of the October issue. Much panic for nothing.

 

[GeorgeJW]

This topic (ethanol and diesel blend) came up today in a class I was attending on diesel engines. Gentleman teaching stated as "fact" that much of our current marine diesel will be 10% blended "very soon" and by late next year, the blend could be up to 20%. I have yet to see any blended diesel...but he got my attention with thoughts of cutting out tanks etc.

So...what is the "real story" here? Are we headed to a diesel blend and eventual problems with our fuel tanks?

 

[Genesis]

I don't see how they solve the lubricity problem with putting Ethanol in diesel.

Unless they can maintain compatability with the millions of both on and off-road engines that currently exist, I just don't see it happening.

 

[Boss Lady]

I think that someone is confused about what they will blend with diesel, it will be bio-diesel not ethynol. The farm co-ops have been using a 10% blend for years now. I just don't see the rationale in using alcohol in diesel, especially since it would wreck havoc with attracting water and ruin injection systems on diesel engines. I think somebody has bad information.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

I agree. ULSD already has lubricity issues. Adding ethanol would require even more additives. Biodiesel is what is coming for diesel. You hear all about these new ethanol plants, but at the same time they are adding bioD capacity. Since most of the public doesn't deal with diesel, the media only concentrates on the things that effect gasoline and consequently some of them get confused.

 

[Genesis]

10% Biodiesel in petro would be a tremendously good thing. Bio has great lubricity and better cetane than straight petro, and even in small (eg. 5%) concentrations it does good things for emissions as well.

Only problem is that current biodiesel oil sources are terribly inefficient and expensive. However, blue-green algae, which can be aquacultured, is some 50x (yes, that's right 50 times!) as efficient per acre as most of the current sources of the feedstock oil, and if THAT was used we could literally replace all of our current petroleum diesel with bio!

This is one of the (few) fuel changes that have been proposed that I strongly support.

 

[Boss Lady]

Me too, and the europeans are way ahead of us on the migration to diesel engines. If we can get algea processes going we can eliminate a huge amount of pollution too. This is a perfect opportunity for the Dems and the tree huggers to actually do something useful for the country instead of what they usually do, which is just complain and make problems for the productive people, we will see if they rise to the occassion. You can expect ADM to fight the biodiesel though.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Actually ADM claims to be the world leader in biodiesel. That is if you believe their website and annual reports.

 

[Boss Lady]

We will see how they react to algea vs corn for bio-diesel. They are all for corn base bio.

 

[Maynard Rupp]

I found this link as well:

http://www.bbibiofuels.com/news/view.cgi?article=405

So while it seems ethanol blended diesel does it exist I can't find any info on where and when it would be sold.

Congrats to all our diesel fuel advocates. Now you can share the same concerns about Ethanol as us gas engined guys do. And don't forget, our exhaust doesn't stink, deposit on the boat, and make everyone sick, as your diesel fuel does. Our engines are a bunch smoother and quieter, and cost a bunch less to operate and fix.

 

[Boss Lady]

this was a test that ADM and the corn growers of Illinois sponsored, yep, a real self licking ice cream cone. They ran a two truck test, very far from conclusive. Hell I could mix aftershave with diesel and get the same results, they have not proved anything. Yes your gas engines may be the best for your boat, but show me a gas engine that will make the HP and Torque of a diesel for the amount of fuel used. I will tolerate the stink, thank you. Now if we could just get bio-diesel at the dock, it would smell like french fries instead.

 

[Boatsb]

Will that raise my cholesterol?

 

[Boatsb]

Oh and it was about 10% less econimical than the standard diesel so the savings would be?

Put the ethanol where it belongs. The liquor store.

 

[Trojan]

There building a new Bio plant just 10 miles from my farm in south east Mich.. It is supposed to be on line this summer. I understand that there is another plant being built near here also. Smells like french fries? Nothing like perpetual
munchies while driving or boating. But then some people have that now.


BILL

 

[Genesis]

Bio (or ethanol) from corn is about the worst possible trade-off you can make.

It is not cost-effective, it is not environmentally sound (corn is one of the worst crops to grow in terms of damage to the environment in both water and fertilizer needs) and there are arguments to be made that it is not even a net energy win over fossil fuels! (the latter is disputed; that's a case of "dueling scientists") Never mind the yield issue - it is not possible to produce sufficient ethanol to replace gasoline, even if you were to use ALL of the land suitable to growing corn only for fuel production.

(One of the true tests of any replacement fuel is whether you could run the entire production process energy needs off the product and have enough left to be worthwhile when you were done. The answer for ethanol is an emphatic NO.)

You can't solve these problems with ethanol due to the distillation requirement. Biodiesel doesn't share this problem as it is not a distilled fuel and with blue-green algae as the feedstock there is no yield issue either.

 

[34Hatt]

And don't forget, our exhaust doesn't stink, deposit on the boat, and make everyone sick, as your diesel fuel does. Our engines are a bunch smoother and quieter, and cost a bunch less to operate and fix.

I think I really need to take you for a ride since I am Diesel and can't figure out where you get this. My dock neighbors complain yeah they complain that when they are in their boat they can't hear me coming in so they can't help with lines then feel bad about it . You should see his face when he comes out and see's my boat back. Oh yeah I can sure hear him and he is gas but does not go out much says it cost to much burning 30 + gallons @ hr Deposits what is that the only one's I have are at the Bank.

 

[Boatsb]

I have original 8v53 engines 40 years old and my transom doesn't soot either. No mufflers so I cant claim quiet but neither can most gas powered vessels.

I dont argue that Gas engines have their positives but for the larger HP and the torque needed for the bigger boats diesel is the only answer.