Ethanol Again!

[cjd]

I searched this forum and others but could not find the definative answer on this. I called Hatteras with the Hull Id. on a potential candidate for purchase. She is a 1985 36SF with Crusaders. Allan Hills at Hatteras confirmed this using the hull id that the tanks installed were before the change over to the new resin. They started tha change over about 45 models after this one. Maynard- You might be safe with that 1986 model!!

Previous owner confirms and I have reason to believe that tanks have not seen Ethanol. (Used once last year before marina got E-10 and has been sitting at the dock with a full tank of gas ever since)

My question would be this. How long after E-10 is introduced to the boat do I need to worry about the tanks or engines start to show the signs?

I have heard that most of the marinas south of Kent Narrows, MD , you can still by ethanol free. But for how long? Any Annapolis Bay boaters out there?
Replacement with diesels would be in my budget but not for atleast 1-2 years out.

Has anyone priced out tank replace including cockpit repair from the cut out or do they remove the engins to get to the tanks.

Thanks, I need to make some decisions.
CJD

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

My question would be this. How long after E-10 is introduced to the boat do I need to worry about the tanks or engines start to show the signs?
CJD

sorry, but there is not a definitive answer on this part of you're question.
i had e10 in my tanks over the winter and lasted an hour and a half. another
hatt lasted a few more hours on a maiden voyage with stored fuel. i remember another list member had problems after taking on his initial load of e10. then there is my fellow boating buddy with the same boat as me went almost 2 summers before showing signs. wish i had some good news or easy answers for you.

jim

 

[Starman]

Not real sure about your boat, but Don Charland has his 34 at the same yard I am rebuilding Boss lady, and he did cut out the aft deck to remove the fuel tanks.

He is getting new ones built , but I do not remember where.

The tanks in his boat are square but with a couple of mitered corners, if that makes sense. ( my description that is ).

Both tanks fit in the back of his pickup truck, one on top of the other. So you can estimate the size from that.

The deck he cut out with a sawzall. Not very hard to do.........I think he liked doing it ........ ( it's that destructive part of us guys !! )

The deck was plywood glassed over. Would not be hard to patch a deck like that. build a few new supports, lay some ply, glass it back in.

Don I think may even try to reuse what he had removed.

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

as paul said, building the support structure it isn't that hard if you have basic woodworking skills. the deck sills are glassed to the hull sides. the floorjoists sit on them. the center floorjoist supports are attatched to the centerline stringers, followed by your choice of subfloor. this is how the 34 is built. dan (end of the line II, 34hat) used some product that came in sheets like starboard for the subfloor when he did another 34 hats back deck. i'm sure he will give you the name of the stuff.
hope this helps.

jim

 

[Don Charland]

I am replacing my fg tanks, (100 ea) with one custom made aluminum 280 by Best Fabrication in Bartow FL. Exhaust used to go down center line. New arrangement will allow exhausts down the sides and straight shot out the transom.

 

[34Hatt]

The tanks are around $1600 ea then new hose's and etc. That is the easy part of the task. The problem with the deck is you never know what you have until you cut into it. The 34C I did the deck was shot balsa was wet deck stringers were cracked. Everything was cut out and replaced big job lots of money just in materials. I used Cosa for the core $150 @ sheet for 4x8x1/2" and did two layers with mat in-between followed with 3 layers of 1208 and a 1 1/2 oz mat on top. You have to build it back to the same height so that it matches the edges. This was a fiberglass insert some old hats are deferent.

Then over in Ct Double D another 34C was able to cut his deck out in one big square it was in Perfect condition. Then he just added a flange and glassed in the old piece saved himself thousand of $ and time!

And as Jim said how long before E10 will affect you??? The only way to know is with a cystal ball

Sorry these answer are not exact but it is the way it is.
Good Luck Dan

 

[cjd]

Thanks for the insight!
Cutting the deck up is not what I see myself doing after a major purchase. I work on alot of older houses and you never know what your going to get into till its opened up.

You would think with all our technology, some chemist would come up with something to off set the reaction and make a furtune!

Does anyone have a before, during and after pic of a tank replacement? Being a carpenter by trade, show me a picture and I could do it. I am still trying to visualize how this is done without a seam or effecting the intergrity of the deck.
CJ

 

[34Hatt]

The owner of the 34C did take a lot of pictures I will try to get some and post them I think it would be a good post since many owners are getting screwed with E10.

 

[cjd]

Just heard- E-10 is at all Marinas statewide in Maryland.
Its scary stuff. I think we hard heard only the tip of the ice on its effects. It has to be killing boat prices!

The pictures would be great.

CJ

 

[John F.]

I live on Kent Island and have a 31 Bertram with a f'glass tank. I bought all my fuel last year in Talbot County (Kent Narrows or Lowe's Wharf) that has always been a "non-blended" fuel county and did not have ethanol. I got my info. regarding Talbot from the fuel distributor in Easton last year. Your post is the first I've heard that Ethanol was coming statewide. Who told you this?

John F.

 

[cjd]

I talked to a guy at the South River Marina.

 

[John F.]

I'll check Talbot before I splash, and will let you know. There's been alot of misinformation about Ethanol and which marinas have it around the Bay. I was told the same thing by a number of AA County and QA County marinas last spring--that everywhere on the Bay would have E10. It turned out to be only the counties in the DC/Balt/Annapolis area. Talbot and south on the Shore didn't have it. QA County all the way north did, as did all the counties on the Western shore from the Ches-Del to St Mary's as I remember....I lost track after I found out Talbot wouldn't have E10.

John F.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

I just bought a brand new outboard to go on my new RIB. I bought a 2-stroke Johnson since I was most concerned about weight. I was reading the owners manual and here is what it says, "Alcohol blended fuels can cause engine performance problems". Yeah, we know that already. Now tell that to the politicians.

It also says, "Alcohol attracts and holds moisture that can cause corrosion of metallic parts in the fuel system".

 

[NAN-PO 41]

I recently read a posting on another forum that a company in Hawaii is supplying non blended fuel to marinas because of ethanol problems. Perhaps there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Of course I am sure that the unblended fuel will be more expensive due to it's marine designation. ( Lets see if I have it correct. The ethanol gets blended in the delivery truck, which adds to the cost and that would be a step that doesn't have to be done. Sounds like more expensive to me. )
Fred

 

[Boatsb]

I think we need a Tshirt with a glass with the word Ethanol on it and a gas can with it crossed out. Maybe one on each side.

 

[dougl33]

Here's the article referenced above:

http://www.hawaiitribune-herald.com/articles/2007/02/26/local_news/local02.txt

I forwarded this to Boat Useless yesterday. They said they were aware and were looking into it.

I feel safer already.

 

[dereknkathy]

Hi. The thing about Hawaii; there is a lot more shoreline per square mile. Means there are a lot more boaters per voter.

 

[mstevens61]

I found non ethenol based fuel last fall in Kilmarnock VA, the owner there said he did not expect to get Ethanol in the forseable future. I understand that it goes by the state gov. and based on the level of polutants in the air, most rural towns and counties are not required to sell ethanol based fuels. That being said I have talked to other marina owners who told me that all marinas must sell ethanol based fuel, and it is ilegal to sell MBTE based gasoline in a Ethanol mandated area (called a fuel distrubuter directly, and was told that). So forget about having a truck meet you at the pier.

Something even more disturbing is that there is not even enough Ethanol to go around, we can not produce enough domestically and are having to import it from Brazil, this makes gasoline more expensive. Not only that but it is less efficient to burn. 100% Ethanol produces 30% less power than staight gasoline, simple math will tell you that E-10 has 3% less power than MBTE based gasoline.

My direct experience has been limited. I filled up once last summer in MD on the Potomac. After running the boat for a couple hours I found my self changeing fuel filters every half hour. Eventualy the carbs became fouled and the boat was shut down. A quick carb cleaning and rebuild, and a fill up of MBTE base gasoline had me back on the water. When I reached my finale destinatin in Norfolk I had somebody clean my tanks. I think it was USA fuel in NC. The guy said that my tanks were the worst he had ever seen in his whole life (he was in his late 60s and had been doing this a while)
What had happened was that the ethanol broke up 44 years worth of sediment that had settled on the bottom of the tank. My fuel lines and filter were clogged with this Junk. I havent had any problems since, but also have not filled up with Ethanol. I did install a 36 gallon tank inbetween the two big ones in case this gets real bad, it won't get me far but I can atleast get off the dock until I get the big tanks replaced.
Seems to me that the real problem occurs when the fuel sits in your tanks a long time, over winter will deffinetly distroy your tanks. If you're running your but often and dry up your tanks when the boat isn't being used you may make it a couple years. Be carefull not to push it because you will detroy your engines if the gasoline has taken to much resin into consatration.
Anybody able to expound upon this would be greatly appreciated.
Hope I have brought some further wisdom to this whole mess.

Matt
1962 34 SC
"Clewless"

 

[cjd]

I think you can still get E free in Talbot County MD.
I was told today while brokering for insurance on a (Hat 36) gas boat I have a contract on pending survey that they might not even be able to insure the boat without having the tanks replaced.
The online quote I got from Boat US didnt even ask the question but I figure it will come up after reviewing the survey.
Sounds like its only going to get worse. This is crazy.

 

[Jackman]

I spoke with Steve McPhearson today...mostly because of a couple parts I needed to rebuild my steering piston assembly or whatever its called...I have a leak. I brought up ethanol to him again and he now said something different than what I've heard. He said the resin issues affect boats all the way up to 1988...I heard it was pre-1985 originally. We talked for a bit...he's even concerned with the talk about ethanol in diesel because he said if thy're talking about it its probably already on its way. So I see it this way...if there truly is a problem...I have only one choice....replace the tank...I don't even know if I'd want to upgrade to diesel at this point...I'm scared I'd kill a set of very expensive engines because of ethanol.

I'll be looking at my tank again this weekend or next. I had a hard time seeing things but the inside was dark in color. I don't know if it was black or a dark amber color...too hard to tell. I have to look a little closer at this. I do know I have some slight buildup on the intake but is this from the startron cleaning a very dirty tank very quickly and all at once or is it the resin dissolving? The intakes will be coming off in the next week or so to look closer as well. I'll take pictures of everything if I can. I am also rebuiling the carbs.

I have a call into one of the Hatteras tech guys about the tank. I want know what they looke like on the inside new from the factory. There is a company making tanks for Berts out of the new resin that is resistant to ethanol. I wonder if there is someone capable of doing it and certifying the tanks for Hat owners. That is the problem with Mr Slane from what Steve Mcphearson said....Slane can make a tank out of the good stuff but he doesn't think Slane has the capability to certify the tanks, which renders them useless to us....maybe he can certify them through another company...I don't know.