Ethanol Again!

[Maynard Rupp]

I spoke with Steve McPhearson today...mostly because of a couple parts I needed to rebuild my steering piston assembly or whatever its called...I have a leak. I brought up ethanol to him again and he now said something different than what I've heard. He said the resin issues affect boats all the way up to 1988...I heard it was pre-1985 originally. We talked for a bit...he's even concerned with the talk about ethanol in diesel because he said if thy're talking about it its probably already on its way. So I see it this way...if there truly is a problem...I have only one choice....replace the tank...I don't even know if I'd want to upgrade to diesel at this point...I'm scared I'd kill a set of very expensive engines because of ethanol.

I'll be looking at my tank again this weekend or next. I had a hard time seeing things but the inside was dark in color. I don't know if it was black or a dark amber color...too hard to tell. I have to look a little closer at this. I do know I have some slight buildup on the intake but is this from the startron cleaning a very dirty tank very quickly and all at once or is it the resin dissolving? The intakes will be coming off in the next week or so to look closer as well. I'll take pictures of everything if I can. I am also rebuiling the carbs.

I have a call into one of the Hatteras tech guys about the tank. I want know what they looke like on the inside new from the factory. There is a company making tanks for Berts out of the new resin that is resistant to ethanol. I wonder if there is someone capable of doing it and certifying the tanks for Hat owners. That is the problem with Mr Slane from what Steve Mcphearson said....Slane can make a tank out of the good stuff but he doesn't think Slane has the capability to certify the tanks, which renders them useless to us....maybe he can certify them through another company...I don't know.

What on earth is "certifying". Is this the lawyers trying to chase away every possible supplier for these tanks? When I was born, I did not come with a "certification". As a matter of fact I now have a bad case of prostate cancer. i am hoping for a cure, but I sure am not asking the doctors for a certificate. just try to believe that everyone who is trying to help us with new tanks is giving it their best effort.

 

[cjd]

I've heard replacing the tanks only solves half the issue. Now you have to worry about water build up in the tanks, extra filters and storing this stuff for any period of time.

Gonna seriously look at diesels if I get this boat.

 

[Jackman]

Maynard,

Along the lines of "being certified"....all tanks must have met requirements set by the coast guard. You can't just make a tank and put it in your boat. The insurance comapanies would probably eat that alive and drop coverage. You would probably have issues selling the boat later on if the buyer was the least bit knowledgable. Its not about anyone being tough to deal with or not helping out with the cause...its about safety and maintaining it. I, myself, would not buy a tank from just anyone. There are too many people that could be affected by a poor decision on my part. I am looking for an answer to this poblem like many others. I am still in the process of deciding whether or not it is a problem and how to deal with it if it is. Like I said before I am a chemist and still not convinced. I think, at this point, startron cleaned the hell out of my tank and deposited a ton of crap from years of sludge on my intakes. Until proven otherwise beyond doubt I will keep monitoring the situation. But I am preparing myself if I have to make a sudden change.

I hope it all works out with you health issues. Good Luck with it all.

I'm still not sure diesels will make this problem go away.

 

[34Hatt]

Jackman you will have a hard time seeing the damage in the tanks. The first place will be under the Carb. Look for black starting to build up and for the most part no one has really lost a motor they have plenty of bent push rods though. One case in Montauk a chevy pulled the bronze guide up on a valve. I also know people that after they figured out what was going on, since they were the first one's some use techtron and another used marvel to get thru the season. One of them would fog his motor every time before shutting it off.
Picture a harbor full of boat rafted up for fireworks that night and he pulls in ties up next to me and then FOGS his motor Lucky for me I was off in the raft visiting friends but the wife was aboard

 

[Jackman]

I guess my underlying thought is....how do you know the difference between a tank depositing resin in the gas and making it to your engine versus ethanol gas acting as a great solvent and putting sludge through your engine at an unprecedented rate in a short period of time? Both situations will gunk up your intakes carbs ect. There's no doubt about that.

The boatus evidence speaks of styrene being in the sample they analyzed. Well, styrene is in a starting material used for the polymeric reaction for the fiberglassing process. Most of these eractions do not goto 100% completion so I can see residual amounts being in the gas once ethanol is introcduced because its soluable in it. However, there are other sources of styrene like packaging used to hold the additives used to treat your fuel. Ithink they're whole thought process is based on this data which is very incolclusive. There are many worse solvents in gas...worse than ethanol and not hurting the tank. Some of the additives added contain naptha and other solvents that will do more damage to fiberglass than ethanol. Techron fuel contains cleaning agents as well, that will dissolve the sludge...what else will it dissolve?


I'm gonna start by cleaning my carbs and intakes in a week or so and go from there. I'll try to get pictures.

 

[34Hatt]

Kind of gives you the feeling of being inbetween a Rock and a Hard place for sure

I don't think the sludge will make it past the filters like the resin goo..
Have you seen any pictures of valves and Intakes with this black stuff If not I think I can get you some to compare with???

I feel for you I still remember when you did your motors and all the work you put into them!!!

 

[Jackman]

I just spoke with the folks at Hatteras today. The tanks are made of an isophthalicbromoacetal polyester resin. (The first time I have learned about the chemical name of the resin). I think I'm screwed....or have to move to a MTBE state.....Like Hawaii.

 

[dereknkathy]

As far as certified to build tanks; has anybody asked SP sheet metal in Tom's River NJ for their certification? They are using stainless fittings and guage senders in their tanks. From what I hear that is a BAD THING. If Slane can't be certified to build tanks for Hatterasses (Hatteri?) how can Hatteras be certified to build tanks for their own boats? I don't think any tank will stand up as long as a fiberglass tank will, so we better build our new cockpits with that in mind. On that note, I have a theory. If I made new fiberglass resin with exactly the same formula Hatt used in the 60's and built tanks out of it, they would hold up to ethanol, probably as long as aluminum. I also believe if I use Interplastics VE 8770 UL rated for ALL fuels resin to build tanks, 40 years from now they will be failing-whether from ethanol or whatever new fuel they have at the time. We don't know for sure the tanks our boats left the plant with wouldn't be failing after 40 years of tetraethyl leaded regular good-old-American gas. We do know for sure that if the tanks were made of anything but 'glass we would have replaced them AT LEAST once now, and be due for another anyway. In which case, we wouldn't be crying, bitching, and worrying right now. We would be used to replacing tanks like EVERYBODY ELSE!! So let's just make nice pretty hatches above our new tanks so this isn't an issue next time around. The added advantage WE WILL BE ABLE TO FIX OUR FUEL SENDERS!!!

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Sportfishers are relatively easy to get tanks out of. The double cabins and motoryachts are the real problem. Look at a 53MY as an example. If those tanks ever had to come out, you'd end up tearing out most of the interior. Those keel tanks are not only under the floor and interior walls(bulkheads), there is also a water tank over the top of the aft keel tank. That water tank is a berth in the side stateroom and the walls, berth, water tank, and floor would all have to come out to get to that keel fuel tank. I doubt ethanol will ever be widely used in diesel, but if it did, that would be catastrophic to some of these designs as many would choose not to do the work to udgrade.

 

[MarioG]

Guys, what about replacing the tanks with bladders? cut off the tops of the fiberglass tanks and install and secure the bladders in place.

BTW lots of airplanes have been usuing bladders for years.

just a thought.

 

[dereknkathy]

bladders. every tank is baffled down to 2 feet by 2 feet square at the largest. my 34c tanks (6 foot by 3 foot by 1 foot high) are broken into 6-2 foot by 1.5 foot squares. are you gonna put 6 bladders in 1 tank? or are you gonna cut out the baffles and find out they are there not only to strengthen the tank-but to stop 600 to 1000 lbs of fuel from getting up that much momentum every time the boat rolls on a wave? the way i am gonna go is cut the cockpit to make removable hatches above the tanks. then i am going to open up each section between the baffles. prep the insides, and lay up 1 or 2 layers of glass with vinylester resin. if it doesn't work-or doesn't work long, i still have my hatches to replace the tanks next time i have 3 grand i don't need. OR to replace the tanks so somebody will be willing to buy my boat. it's no fun, but like i said earlier, if we didn't have hatterases we would be used to replacing tanks. count your blessings-whip out your sawzalls-AND DON'T USE A MATCH TO SEE WHAT THE INSIDE LOOKS LIKE!!

 

[rswirtz]

I hate the fact that we are such a litigious society, but I wonder if this is lawsuit material if your tanks and engines get all messed up?

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Against who? Hatteras, who made the tanks? UL, who certified the tanks? The resin manufacturer? ADM, who made the ethanol? Exxon-Mobil, who blended it with their gasoline? The EPA, who mandated that they do it? The lobbyists, who lined the pockets of the politicians to get the EPA to mandate it? The Arabs, who quit selling us cheap oil? or .....who?

 

[Jackman]

I don't think you'll be able to be successful at suing....but the least they could do is at least allow for a big deduction at tax time for the loss. I have already lost thousands because I will never recoup or get use of the money I put into my 454's. But the way I look at it I'd rather put the $$ into a good set of diesels than to chance killing my family/friends...the key word is chance. I only bet in casino's not out on the water!

 

[rswirtz]

Well, i don't know, I'm an IT guy, but I would guess start at the source, where you got the gas, the gas supplier, etc. etc.

 

[sammidog]

I suspect winning a lawsuit is slim. The tanks were the best material known at the time. If Hatteras KNEW the tanks would degenerate with ethanol and they KNEW ethanol was going to be introduced into gasoline then maybe.

The problem I see is the current owner has a great potential for being sued if someone is killed or injured in an explosion due to a leaking tank. It will be hard to prove you never heard of the problem. It is well published in Boat US, internet etc.

 

[Maynard Rupp]

Against who? Hatteras, who made the tanks? UL, who certified the tanks? The resin manufacturer? ADM, who made the ethanol? Exxon-Mobil, who blended it with their gasoline? The EPA, who mandated that they do it? The lobbyists, who lined the pockets of the politicians to get the EPA to mandate it? The Arabs, who quit selling us cheap oil? or .....who?

Thanks Sky...Your statement puts the whole issue in perspective. I think our tank is OK. The guy that pumped it out said it looks like new inside and most say boats of 1986 vintage have a more acceptable,(to Ethanol), gel coat.