Considering 1975 36 Convertible, 3208 320's

[bhostrawser]

Hi All,

Survey was done yesterday, in the water so no info on potential hull issues below the waterline. I'll have the full report on Monday or so, but this is a synopsis. Overall, 'good condition for her age'. One potential core issue on the deck near the dink davit. Otherwise, hull and deck were sound.

On the negative side, there were many smaller issues. Wiring / bus bars were corroded, causing things like the fwd bilge pump to be inop. Windlass inop. CO2 inop. AC inop. Several thru hulls have seized up valves. Espar heater intake was from the ER which is a big no-no but simple fix. Recently had two fatalities out here due to CO buildup from a similar heater with an intake in an ER with a leaky gasket. This may be a factory install and be advised all!

Basically, all that has been said here has rang true. Yes, those 3208's are massive in that engine room! However, compared to my sailboat, access is awesome! It is not a roomy boat for 36 by modern standards. Again, compared to said sloop, it is a tremendous step up. The Cat v. Cummins and the Series 1 v. Series 2 debates are ones that I don't think have clearly right answers, it really depends on preferences and use cases. The 320's on board fired immediately from a cold start, but put out a touch of blue in the exhaust smoke for the first 30 seconds or so, and then cleared up. Running rich or injectors or ok? Sea trial on saturday to see how it handles loads and what the speeds at cruise and WOT.

For me, I haven't seen a Series 2, so I can't really say much about it. I've seen a 37, is the 36 S2a whole lot different? There are only a handful on the west coast, and are usually valued pretty high. For me, that meants 80-100k list. Finding a Galley-up, two-station Series 2 in my range is going to be a longshot, at least in CA. Going east is almost not an option as I just dont have the time to travel, and shipping is going to inflate the cost over where I want to be.

I'm probably talking myself into this S1 at this point, but the preferences I have seem to match this boat. The sloop I have is small and heavy for a 30 footer, and bulletproof. I've preferred simple and proven to complicated and new.

Surveyor is going to give me an approx. valuation asap, I'm expecting mid 30's to low 40's, which sounds like the consensus would be around here also?

 

[Avenger]

The exhaust smoke you describe sounds normal. These things are not exactly "clean diesel" spec. but they should run reasonably clean if they're set up right.

The electrical in these boats was not up to Hatteras' later standards of quality so what you're describing sounds similar to mine. You'll be doing some electrical work for sure.

 

[saltshaker]

From what you've posted, I think the 36 Series I is a good fit. The 36 series II is a bigger, heavier, thirstier boat and as you've noticed, will cost you more. There's always a slightly bigger, newer boat if you up your budget. But the purchase price is only one factor. The operating cost and functionality change too. I moved up to a 65C from a 46C. We love the 65 but the 46 was easier to own and use. Don't get sucked into something that's more than you need or can easily afford.

 

[jim rosenthal]

These are good little boats, of a manageable size, and the 3208s are reliable and fairly economical engines. As you noted, service access ain't great, but you have to decide what you can live with. The best way to approach this is to buy the boat, if it performs well and you like it, for the most reasonable low price for which you can get it, and then begin fixing the various things it will need, with the most critical stuff first. From what you write, I would begin with the boat's wiring, which sounds like it needs plenty of attention. You may find it helpful to have a marine electrician coach you on what to do- also the ABYC codes are very helpful in this regard. Bilge pumps and fuel systems are next, etc etc. Cosmetic stuff gets done last.

Boats tend to gain weight over the years from all the things that find their way on board and don't leave. Getting rid of what you don't need will lighten ship, make it easier to find things, and make room for YOUR stuff. Like most of us, boats need to be put on diets from time to time.

This sounds like a decent deal in the thirties to me, but I don't know what the survey and sea trials will end up concluding, and as you pointed out Hatteras Yachts are not all that common out west. I don't think, with several major systems out of commission, that it's worth more than that. You do, however, have one of the best marine diesel outfits in the entire country out there- Seaboard Marine in Oxnard, CA- and although they are not a Cat dealer they can give you a lot of very good advice. Also join the boatdiesel.com forum as noted above. There's a lot of good stuff there as well.

 

[bhostrawser]

The exhaust smoke you describe sounds normal. These things are not exactly "clean diesel" spec. but they should run reasonably clean if they're set up right.

The electrical in these boats was not up to Hatteras' later standards of quality so what you're describing sounds similar to mine. You'll be doing some electrical work for sure.

Ok, fair enough. I can manage plenty of 12v work, not too difficult, not too expensive!

From what you've posted, I think the 36 Series I is a good fit. The 36 series II is a bigger, heavier, thirstier boat and as you've noticed, will cost you more. There's always a slightly bigger, newer boat if you up your budget. But the purchase price is only one factor. The operating cost and functionality change too. I moved up to a 65C from a 46C. We love the 65 but the 46 was easier to own and use. Don't get sucked into something that's more than you need or can easily afford.

Yeah, thats really the guiding light here, excellent point.

 

[bhostrawser]

Thanks Jim!

These are good little boats, of a manageable size, and the 3208s are reliable and fairly economical engines. As you noted, service access ain't great, but you have to decide what you can live with. The best way to approach this is to buy the boat, if it performs well and you like it, for the most reasonable low price for which you can get it, and then begin fixing the various things it will need, with the most critical stuff first. From what you write, I would begin with the boat's wiring, which sounds like it needs plenty of attention. You may find it helpful to have a marine electrician coach you on what to do- also the ABYC codes are very helpful in this regard. Bilge pumps and fuel systems are next, etc etc. Cosmetic stuff gets done last.

This sounds like a plan. I bought the sloop in decent shape, and completely rebuilt her over the next couple of years in exactly that fashion. While this 36 is a step up in scale and complexity, it is the same fundamental set of systems I've been working with for years.

Boats tend to gain weight over the years from all the things that find their way on board and don't leave. Getting rid of what you don't need will lighten ship, make it easier to find things, and make room for YOUR stuff. Like most of us, boats need to be put on diets from time to time.

Very true, current owner has boat packed to the gills with every bit of stuff he ever bought for it, everything he ever removed, and it looks like nothing ever came off.

This sounds like a decent deal in the thirties to me, but I don't know what the survey and sea trials will end up concluding, and as you pointed out Hatteras Yachts are not all that common out west. I don't think, with several major systems out of commission, that it's worth more than that. You do, however, have one of the best marine diesel outfits in the entire country out there- Seaboard Marine in Oxnard, CA- and although they are not a Cat dealer they can give you a lot of very good advice. Also join the boatdiesel.com forum as noted above. There's a lot of good stuff there as well.

Surveyor just called and found only one comparable sale in CA last year, and the vessel went for 40k with original 210hp's. Hope it was immaculate!

 

[bhostrawser]

Update: Sea Trial

Conditions were a bit prohibitive, unfortunately. 5ft @ 6 secs was the forecast, building from there throughout the day. So, we tried to stay inshore where the point would shelter us from most of the wave action, but it didn't give us much room to work.

The one thing that I was able to establish is that the boat is underpropped. At some point, when the 210's were replaced with the 320's, they kept the props, but DE-pitched them. Reason being, PO wanted to troll for salmon @ 2kts. So, portside idles down to around 550rpm, and just a touch up from there is where they troll, I'm not sure if they left the stbd side running but not in gear or shut it down at that point.

This means the boat was slower than I expected. Understand the conditions were not ideal, but at 2400rpm, we are only @ 16kts, and WOT was around 2800 @ 20kts.

So... couple questions.... first, this concerns me a bit in that the load being light and rpms being high are not ideal conditions for breaking in a diesel, as I understand. Maybe its not the end of the world w/700hrs? Assuming this is the case, what SHOULD the props be pitched at, is this going to need new props? Can the old ones be repitched again far enough?

 

[bhostrawser]

Worst. Survey. Ever.

I'll spare you the details, but among other things, listing the wrong engine model, wrong hours, wrong generator model, and despite listing all seacocks inoperable and locked open, among a bunch of other things, still gave it a 50k value!

My favorite :

(f) Amount of Rope: Ample

Wow. I can't believe I just paid for that.

 

[jim rosenthal]

I don't if this surveyor was recommended by BoatUS, or is on the BoatUS list of approved surveyors, but I would find out immediately and complain to them AND to the surveyor. If they are on that list, they get a lot of business from it, and I would point out to them that this surveyor isn't competent.


Meantime, I would find another boat. You are describing a boat worth far less than $50K and I would not buy it. This might be a decent deal at $25K. I don't care how rare they are out on the West coast. If they are that rare, and the pickings are that slim for Hatteras yachts, find something else that are more common out there (a Tollycraft, maybe) where you have enough choices to get a good one. Either that, or offer what the boat is really worth- not what an incompetent surveyor thinks it's worth) and if they don't accept the offer, keep moving. They made two hundred of these boats. You actually could buy one on the East coast and get a better deal and have money left over to move it to CA.

 

[saltshaker]

Worst. Survey. Ever.

I'll spare you the details, but among other things, listing the wrong engine model, wrong hours, wrong generator model, and despite listing all seacocks inoperable and locked open, among a bunch of other things, still gave it a 50k value!

My favorite :

(f) Amount of Rope: Ample

Wow. I can't believe I just paid for that.

That's not possible unless my last surveyor moved to the West Coast.

 

[34Hatt]

I don't if this surveyor was recommended by BoatUS, or is on the BoatUS list of approved surveyors, but I would find out immediately and complain to them AND to the surveyor. If they are on that list, they get a lot of business from it, and I would point out to them that this surveyor isn't competent.


Meantime, I would find another boat. You are describing a boat worth far less than $50K and I would not buy it. This might be a decent deal at $25K. I don't care how rare they are out on the West coast. If they are that rare, and the pickings are that slim for Hatteras yachts, find something else that are more common out there (a Tollycraft, maybe) where you have enough choices to get a good one. Either that, or offer what the boat is really worth- not what an incompetent surveyor thinks it's worth) and if they don't accept the offer, keep moving. They made two hundred of these boats. You actually could buy one on the East coast and get a better deal and have money left over to move it to CA.

Being recommended by boat us is B.S
I have dealt with some of their so called Expurt Surveyors Not Impressed at all!

 

[34Hatt]

From what you've posted, I think the 36 Series I is a good fit. The 36 series II is a bigger, heavier, thirstier boat and as you've noticed, will cost you more. There's always a slightly bigger, newer boat if you up your budget. But the purchase price is only one factor. The operating cost and functionality change too. I moved up to a 65C from a 46C. We love the 65 but the 46 was easier to own and use. Don't get sucked into something that's more than you need or can easily afford.

That is Advice everyone should get while looking I was lucky and had a friend tell me the same thing. I was looking at 38' 41' he talked me into the 34' best thing anyone has done for me. I wouldn't be running 23 kts burning 20 gallons in any of those boat. Plus I would still be waiting for a slip in the club which saved me around 5k a year been there 4 years now that adds up.

 

[dsharp]

You shouldn't by a boat without hauling it out and looking at the bottom and running gear. It's impossible to tell if its under propped from the information that's provided. At 2800 its hitting the governor. The reasoning about upping the hp and reducing pitch to troll slower doesn't really add up. You will need to know what ratio gears are being used and the prop size before you can tell much about speed. If your talking about anchor line, I've never seen a surveyor pull it all out and measure it so ample sounds about normal.

 

[Avenger]

Definitely agree on the need for more info and a haulout. BTW, maxing out a 2800 loaded means it's propped correctly unless something else is wrong. But as stated, there's a lot that doesn't add up here. You need to know prop sizes, I'd be cautious about taking somebody else's word for what's going on under there.

I just re-read the post about the props. Going from 210 to 320 and de-pitching doesn't make a stitch of sense at all. Why repower with all that horsepower and then unload it to below the original power? The salmon fishing story smells fishy.

 

[saltshaker]

I guess I missed the lack of a haul out. Given the issues and poor performance it's hard to say what's going on without all the info. You need a haul out to check bottom, thru hull and running gear condition. Find out what you can about the prop size. Check what's stamped on them but don't assume that's what they are. Your surveyor should have measured them. Hard to say if the props can be tweaked or need to be replaced without all the facts. You need to know the gear ratio and weight of the boat to get an idea of what would be ideal. I don't think being under-propped would be that much of an issue. Don't buy it with so many unanswered questions, particularly at the price your looking at.

 

[bhostrawser]

Definitely agree on the need for more info and a haulout. BTW, maxing out a 2800 loaded means it's propped correctly unless something else is wrong. But as stated, there's a lot that doesn't add up here. You need to know prop sizes, I'd be cautious about taking somebody else's word for what's going on under there.

I just re-read the post about the props. Going from 210 to 320 and de-pitching doesn't make a stitch of sense at all. Why repower with all that horsepower and then unload it to below the original power? The salmon fishing story smells fishy.

So, what happened here was that he originally repowered with the 210's, but they had serious problems and Cat took them back and sent him 320's. The original 210's had just shy of 8k hours on them. I agree though with all stated here that the boat needs to come out of the water and I need to know the condition of the running gear and hull, if I am going to even consider moving forward.

I'd buy the Salmon story, knowing the seller a bit. He's a good guy, well intentioned and old world honest. However, he isn't particularly technical or mechanically inclined. The boat is most definitely set up for Salmon and crabbing, and its VERY clean, but in need of maintenance. However, I'll admit that I do tend to believe people are mostly upstanding and good, which tends to burn me with some frequency.

Considering what Jim said, the issue is not particularly unique to Hatteras. Apologies, this may be a bit OT. Tollys and Uniflites are more common out here, and the Californian 34 is pretty popular too, but the valuations are similar. You can find a Californian in decent shape for around 40k when it was listed close to 50. I've looked at about 5 of these from 30k to 60k list, the low end are gassers, which I won't do. The high end are diesels, old ones at that, and they all have issues with wood on the deckhouse and flybridge. Uniflites are a wildcard, but they almost always have had major blistering. There are a couple Tollys floating around, but they seem to be all gassers. So, from what I see, all these mentioned are similarly priced to a Hat in similar condition.

Thanks to everyone for all the input. It has been extremely helpful.

 

[jim rosenthal]

Have you thought about buying a boat on the East coast and shipping it home? You could do that if you found the right deal out here. And there are a lot more of them elsewhere in the country....

 

[Mike36c]

I agree with Jim, find the right re-powered boat and ship it. You'll pay more up front but you get the upgraded parts (engines, gears, etc.)for half price and their installation labor for free. Plenty of turn key great deals out there.

 

[luckydave215]

Hatts are more rare on the west coast and the shipping from the east coast more expensive than you east coast guys realize, and the going prices reflect this. It was going to be $50k to ship and insure a 60C, and that was eight years ago! It simply won't pencil out for a $40k boat.
I know an excellent surveyor in SoCal named Bunker Hill, PM me if you need contact info.

 

[saltshaker]

Hatts are more rare on the west coast and the shipping from the east coast more expensive than you east coast guys realize, and the going prices reflect this. It was going to be $50k to ship and insure a 60C, and that was eight years ago! It simply won't pencil out for a $40k boat.
I know an excellent surveyor in SoCal named Bunker Hill, PM me if you need contact info.

That's what I was thinking unless he plans to put a lot of money into this boat to fix it. 2 years ago a West Coast buyer had a 58C under contract that was in Destin FL. After he got real estimates of shipping cost, he withdrew his offer. I was told his estimates ranged from 50K-75K. Same happened a few months ago with a 55C in Ft Lauderdale. Buyer from WA pulled out when he found out how much the shipping was. A 36C should be a lot less since it can be trucked, but it's still a decent chunk of change. He may do better with an East Coast boat if he can get a good one for similar money. The shipping could wash the repair cost and he'd have a better boat in the end. I don't think he'll get a great repowered 36C for 40K-50K so As Dave said, it doesn't look like it would add up to ship one.

It doesn't sound like the one he's looking at is all that bad. There are some issues to deal with and some won't be cheap but she does have newer power and the 3208's are great engines. I think he needs to do a bit more investigating as to the poor performance and maybe get a price adjustment on some of the more significant deficiencies. Remember he did say the boat was very clean, that's a big one for a boat of this vintage.