Charter (or not) Advice...

[spartonboat1]

I have been requested to provide a cruise next summer as a charitable donation to a local organization. I don't get paid, since the org gets the funds. I am out my time and some fuel, maybe 2-3 hours total runtime and 8-15 gals of fuel.

Party on board would be up to 6 (my limit based on other day cruises with friends, family, etc.). Child must be 14+, due to USCG PFD rules.

To the knowledgeable on this site, would I be drifting into dangerous territory if I provide this cruise, i.e. would it be regarded a 'commercial service'. Would I need a special license, in order to do this (or not need the license).

If we get pulled over, I think I would be ok, as I got pulled over by the USCG in 2008, so have clean bill of health from that boarding. If asked, we are just all 'friends'.

What say you? Comments, advice?

 

[SeaEric]

AFAIK, As long as you are receiving NOTHING in exchange for the boat ride, it is not, legally, a charter.

 

[Passages]

Few years back I offered the same deal for a church fund raiser but I had back out due to insurance.

I had BOATUS and I called them just to make sure it was not a charter. In their eyes it was a charter. Even though you recieve no $, your "guests" are paying for passage.

If someone were to get injured, they would sue you as a commercial enterprise.

 

[Pascal]

it's a grey area... since the passengers are paying to get on the boat, it could be considered a charter. Of course if all goes well, nobody cares...

 

[Canuck Dennis]

wait till you read this one......

I was going to donate a summer of "ecological expedition" to our local University
for some of their students, this would be on our 70 ft charter yacht, at no charge...

My accountant told me that even though there was no revenue , the tax department would charge back as income the equivelant amount that I would have received should it have been a paid charter....

So much for philanthropy.

DM

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Philanthropy is not wanted by the current administration. Just look at what they want to do regarding dropping the tax deduction for charitable contributions. They want everything to flow through government so that they have the control. Don't even think of trying to help yourself. It's government's job to help.

 

[Sparky1]

Few years back I offered the same deal for a church fund raiser but I had back out due to insurance.

I had BOATUS and I called them just to make sure it was not a charter. In their eyes it was a charter. Even though you recieve no $, your "guests" are paying for passage.

If someone were to get injured, they would sue you as a commercial enterprise.

I think I'd be looking for another church. My guess is BoatUS was just doing the CYOA deal seeing as how you asked. I'm no expert, but I don't see how you could possibly be sued as a commercial enterprise when you're taking fellow church members on a boat ride while receiving no compensation.

wait till you read this one......

I was going to donate a summer of "ecological expedition" to our local University
for some of their students, this would be on our 70 ft charter yacht, at no charge...

My accountant told me that even though there was no revenue , the tax department would charge back as income the equivelant amount that I would have received should it have been a paid charter....

So much for philanthropy.

DM

Sounds like a Canadian thing. Just out of curiosity, how would the tax department know you had donated a "ecological expedition" unless you were writing it off as a charitable donation?

 

[Angela]

First if the boat is documented, you will need a Coastwise endorsement to your document in order to comply with federal law.

Then you'll need a TWIC card and Proof of random drug testing program participation (not just the one test you took to get your license).

A few other things end up being smart choices such as Commercial liability (your hull insurance rates will also go up) and Jones act coverage if you have crew that is not a direct family member. And if you are a Sea Tow or Boat US recreational member, and need service while "chartering," your subscription wont apply and you will be billed at hourly rates.

Then a bunch of equipment regulations beyond recreational requirements like, type 1 PFD's, a lifering min 20" with vessel name, appropriate buoyant device (raft) for the waters, various placards on the boat including station bill and injury placard. CG commercial rated fuel system. The list goes on....

Mark, you're describing an "inspected commercial passenger vessel." Spin is describing an uninspected 6-pax scenerio, at best. Many of those safety requirements won't apply to him in the situation he is describing, even if it was construed as a charter. The "inspected passenger vessel" is, indeed, a BIG list (and in some cases a STUPID list) - my boat used to be a USCG certified 49 passenger vessel and we let the certification go when we discovered what the requirements were doing to the vessel - the so-called safety requirements set this boat up for disaster in the right conditions, but would have passed USCG inspection - go figure. No thanks - I "un-did" that crap. I did keep the raised railing, extra fire extinguishing systems, life vest stuff, but the engine room stuff found its way to the nearest dumpster! It was pretty much a "cover it all up so you can't see what's happening back there." NO WAY!!!!

Anyway, Spindrift, if nothing goes wrong, then "it never happened," but if someone gets hurt, you could be on the hook for the injuries as your insurer will surely play the "charter" card as an excuse to deny you coverage.

 

[Traveler 45C]

Wow. I was going to just offer to take some kids out for the day. Donate my time and vessel just so they can have fun and swim. But after reading this, I'm thinking it might not be such a good idea.

 

[Passages]

I think I'd be looking for another church. My guess is BoatUS was just doing the CYOA deal seeing as how you asked. I'm no expert, but I don't see how you could possibly be sued as a commercial enterprise when you're taking fellow church members on a boat ride while receiving no compensation?

Bird, there WOULD be compensation - to the church.

I know of someone at my marina who got the OK from his insurance company (he checked) and auctioned a day on his boat for his church. Bidding went to $1200.

If someone were to get injured, it would be his insurance company, not the injured party who would come after you.

 

[krush]

By the way, those of us who believe in a society built on order and the rule of law DO CARE

Do care about what? You care that our great country has been overun by sleezy lawyers that will sue anybody for anything even if the person was just doing a charity event?

People say those with money are selfish...but most aren't. However, it makes sense for one with a high net worth to not do any good deeds because of the #1 rule of suing--only go after people with lots of money.

 

[Sparky1]

Bird, there WOULD be compensation - to the church.

I know of someone at my marina who got the OK from his insurance company (he checked) and auctioned a day on his boat for his church. Bidding went to $1200.

If someone were to get injured, it would be his insurance company, not the injured party who would come after you.

You seem to have contradicted yourself here if this person you know got the OK from his insurance company. Maybe my comment about BoatUS was accurate after all. Unless there was proven negligence on the part of the boat owner, it just don't see how the injured party's insurance could sue the owner. Worst case scenario would be the injured party's insurance company would sue your insurance company. Even if they did, how are they going to know this happened in conjuction with a church auction event?

I realize we live in a day and age where people sue each other at the drop of a hat, but it's not like we're talking total strangers boarding someone's boat here. We're talking about taking a fellow church member for a boat ride while helping out the church both belong to. Sorry, I just don't see the risk and wouldn't hesitate to involve myself and my boat in such a situation.

 

[Avenger]

Devil's Advocate Here

I guess I've lost my faith.... in human nature. Church or not, many people change when money is involved. I've seen good friendships shattered and families torn apart, all for a buck. Usually not much of a buck either.

Your friends, your family, your church, your call... but I'd calll my insurance company. And get it in writing, because they'll change their tune for a buck also.

 

[Sparky1]

Could you not just have your boat guest(s) sign a liability waiver in this type of situation? There's no way you're going to get into trouble with the CG or any other LE agency for just riding around with "friends" on your boat.

Derek, I could write a book on how a buck or two can change friends and family, but don't worry, I won't.

 

[Passages]

Could you not just have your boat guest(s) sign a liability waiver in this type of situation? There's no way you're going to get into trouble with the CG or any other LE agency for just riding around with "friends" on your boat.

Derek, I could write a book on how a buck or two can change friends and family, but don't worry, I won't.

OK, one more time...a guy at my marina - let's call him "Mark F" - offered to auction a day on his boat for charity. For whatever reason, his insurance company was fine with it. He either has a broad policy or bought a rider for such an event, don't know which.

A year later it was my turn and Mark said 'better clear it with insurance'. I called and they (BOATUS) said No.

WRT guests signing a waiver - forget it. The guest CAN sign away his right to sue, but he does not speak for his medical insurance carrier. If a paying passanger on your boat gets hurt and runs up a big medical bill, his insurance company has the right to come after you to recover their out of pocket medical costs.

You still get sued and your insurance may walk away.

Remember, we are talking about relatively cheap recreational insurance coverage. You want broader coverage, you will need to pay for it.

 

[Sparky1]

OK, one more time...a guy at my marina - let's call him "Mark F" - offered to auction a day on his boat for charity. For whatever reason, his insurance company was fine with it. He either has a broad policy or bought a rider for such an event, don't know which.

A year later it was my turn and Mark said 'better clear it with insurance'. I called and they (BOATUS) said No.

WRT guests signing a waiver - forget it. The guest CAN sign away his right to sue, but he does not speak for his medical insurance carrier. If a paying passanger on your boat gets hurt and runs up a big medical bill, his insurance company has the right to come after you to recover their out of pocket medical costs.

You still get sued and your insurance may walk away.

Remember, we are talking about relatively cheap recreational insurance coverage. You want broader coverage, you will need to pay for it.

Why not just ask BoatUS if you can purchase such coverage on a one trip basis? You can then add that into the cost of the auction and have your church pay for it. I still can't see how you could be construed as a charter operation since you wouldn't be receiving any compensation. Besides, the church's pockets are bound to be deeper than yours, so it would seem they would be on the hook if a lawsuit were filed.

Come to think of it, my back hasn't been quite the same since you bounced me and Dan off that wake at YankeeFest in that little Sea Ray of yours. Anybody have the number for BoatUS claims?

 

[krush]

The guest CAN sign away his right to sue, but he does not speak for his medical insurance carrier.

That's a myth. You never "sign away" your right to sue, especially if gross negligence is involved. A waiver may HELP the dependent in court, but it could also just be a piece of toilet paper.

Waivers are not nearly as powerful as people think they are.

Using your PERSONAL boat with you driving and PERSONAL liability this day and age is foolish. It sucks, but it is what it is.

 

[Sparky1]

You're right kid, it was dumb for me to take you out of my boat. BTW, I got a call this morning that my boat was on fire. Seems it started with the air conditioning unit you worked on. Hmmm.

 

[whaler23]

People sign away their rights to sue all the time, it happens everyday in many different situations. The settlement of many contract disputes comes down to arbitration, mediation or other "out of court" settlements. Waivers to a jury trial, confessed judgements, etc... are all common legal and binding mechanisms used in modern contract language.

Unless you can prove the individual signing the waiver was incompetent or didn't understand what he/she was signing the waiver stands...

 

[Passages]

Come to think of it, my back hasn't been quite the same since you bounced me and Dan off that wake at YankeeFest in that little Sea Ray of yours. Anybody have the number for BoatUS claims?

No problem Bird, I was fully covered on our little cruise during Yankeefest. You and Dan were my non-paying guests, heck you didn't even buy me a beer when we tied up at Claudios.

How do birds go? ("Cheap, cheap")