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CF-2 Designation going away

  • Thread starter Thread starter GJH
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies Replies 45
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That sucks SEVERELY.

All you have left is the sulfated ash number. Note that Delo 400 USED TO meet the CF-2 spec but then was reformulated and suddenly didn't, and if you didn't look at the package you had no other effective way to know they had boosted TBN (which also increases sulfated ash!) and thus threw you out of spec.

This is a fairly major problem for owners of DD 2-stroke engines; I don't have the first clue on how to know whether Exxon and others who make CF-2 compliant oils will hold their formulations or change them - with the latter being bad news.
 
Hmmm, maybe I should buy a few 55gal drums before the certification goes away.
 
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Hopefully there will be an additive to bring it to spec.
Chris
 
Chris, the problem IS the additives!

There's no fix for this if they reformulate it. The issue is the presence of too much additive package for TBN, which is what neutralizes acids in the oil.

Unfortunately the same additives raise sulfated ash, which is what Detroits will NOT tolerate. Over 1% is too high, 0.5-0.7% is better.

CF-II also has a pressure breakdown specification component that is NOT captured anywhere else, and is necessary due to the unit injection design.

MOST modern single-weight oils will meet the latter spec, but without the label you're guessing. But MOST modern 4-stroke diesel-rated oils will NOT meet the sulfated ash spec.

I don't know what the API is thinking, but this is a pretty serious issue if there is no effort by manufacturers to retain compliance with what the Detroit 2-stroke motors need, and no reasonable way for a consumer to know if the oil they're intending to purchase does meet that spec or not.
 
Doesn't the military use enough of this oil to keep it in production?
 
There's a thought. If the military uses it it will become a mil spec oil. Expect prices to hit around $100/gallon.

I wonder what the local Detroit 2 stroke people will say?
 
Could it be that the formulation is going away because with "current" formulas it doesn't really matter? In other words, perhaps one - or several - of the current oils does the job just as well.

Why is the ash issue an issue anyway? This is not a 2 stroke outboard or old Mcycle where the oil is part of the fuel. This is crankcase oil. Yes, I read all the data in the service/owners manual re oil on our 8V71TIs re the CF2 specs. But it's hard for me to believe that a current oil doesn't easily meet whatever the requirements are based upon.

Again, it's crankcase oil, it is not burned in the combustion chamber - or at least, it's not supposed to be and if it is, there is a different problem.

So I have to admit I don't understand the entire issue...
 
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The sulfated ash issue is due to the design of these engines - a certain amount of oil is pulled up into the combustion chamber and burned due to the airbox-style design.

Excessive sulfated ash leads to deposits on the exhaust valves which in turn prevents them from sealing properly and then they burn. If you run 100hrs/year you may never see it, but it's a real issue and is why Detroit has a sulfated ash requirement in their oil specs.
 
Thanks Karl,

So the design of the engine in first place means that some meaningful amount of engine oil is expected to enter the combustion chamber as opposed to a "normal" engine that, in theory, at least virtually no oil should be entering.

I fully understand the impact of oil in the combustion chamber and the buildup on valves, rings, etc. I just didn't realize that these engines were designed for that to be "normal" operation. With that, yeah - minimal ash content.

I'd think, though I don't know, that the synthetics would have little or no ash... ??
 
Unfortunately for guys with 2-cycle engines this will be a problem.Chevron and Shell which are the clean air additive package leaders in the lube oil industry are only thinking about what is the best additive package to meet clean air standards using modern diesel engine design to do so.

Considering that there are so many 2-cycle diesels out there and some really big ones in ships at that,there must be some smaller oil companies that formulate oils for use in 2-cycle equipment.
 
I have to wonder if it's the same sort of thing as the issue with no lead gas when it replaced leaded. There were all the fears that engines would be destroyed because of the lack of lead additive to cushion the valves. Turned out to be a non-issue, at least for "normal" driving. I put 100k miles on my 68 340S Barracuda on unleaded gas after the switch and there were no valve issues at all. So I'm thinking that, as Karl said, for the kind of use that a lot of us put on these boats (100 hrs or less/annually), it's not much of a concern.

But again, is there any ash in synthetic oil? If not, seems like a solution to the problem regardless of the hours.
 
Mike, yep. It's the DESIGN of the engine. This, by the way, was one of the reasons that DD could NOT meet the emissions specs with the 2-strokes even with DDEC controls - the fact that some of the oil is consumed prevented it (ppm counts when you're talking about EPA specs!)

Extending drain intervals require higher TBN although SOME of this pressure has come off with ULSD (the major contributor to acid formation was the sulfur in the fuel.) Nonetheless the oil companies are first and foremost interested in the current market.

XD40 has been CF-II compliant, and it may remain so. The problem will be getting some sort of certification from them that it will remain "safe" to use. For the recreational guy who runs a couple hundred hours a year I wouldn't get too amped over this, although I personally wouldn't run a high sulfated-ash oil in a DD at all irrespective of hours, but for the commercial user with these engines it's a potentially-serious problem.

The issue isn't the oil - synthetic or no won't help you - the issue is with the additive package, and the producers formulate that to fit current need.
 
My oil salesman claims that the new CJ spec supercedes everything that came before it and that the new oil will be at least as good as the old CF2. I don't believe this. Will there perhaps be a CJ2 spec or will they just try to get you to use CJ4 oil?

I don't know, but I just put an order in for 2 drums of XD3 for $539 each(only one of them is for me). That should last a while.
 
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My DDA service manager informs that DD will be issuing a advisory bulletin as to the remedy..(if any)
 
Practically speaking, for the most part, the refiners will advise if they change formulations. This is just about API issuing their license, which of course was our simple way of pocking up the right thing. However, many CF2 vendors add the language that the oil meets DD's specifications for 2 stroke engines. Yeah, I know, you'd have to trust them, but personally I'm not going to lose sleep over it. if you are really paranoid, you could buy DD's PowerGuard brand, which often times is available at only a small premium over other stuff.
 
Or if you are really paranoid, you could buy a couple of 55 gallon drums. Oh wait, I just did that. Hopefully I'll just look like some sort of crazy for doing that. Or.......... oil will be $20/gallon and I'll look like a genius. Of course, that will also mean that diesel will be $6/gallon and we won't be needing any oil anyway. Oh well.
 
Interesting coincidence.... I have been unsuccessful in finding DD Powerguard oil. My usual supplier (Atlantic DD) now pushes Shell's Rotella, which they claim is the same. Sales BS. Today I spoke with Mark at Globe Petroleum in Red Bank, NJ and he said the new replacement is a product made by Chevron. He claims that it is specified for DD 2 cycle engines. I asked him to e-mail me the tech info so that I can read it. He promised to send it asap. The last batch of oil I bought was 2 or 3 years ago which was the DD Powerguard product. I usually buy over 100 gals ea time so I could get a good price but now I'm getting worried. If anyone knows of a source of DD Powerguard, please let me know.

Walt
 
Just do water injection...solves lots of problems LOL
 
GJH said:
Practically speaking, for the most part, the refiners will advise if they change formulations.
Click to expand...
You mean like they did when they changed the Delo 400 formulation?

Short memory you have there....
 
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