8V71TI Smoking At Startup? Likely new 53MY Owner!

[stormchaser]

Hello all,

The offer on a 1980 53MY was accepted pending Sea Trail and Survey. It's scheduled for next Tuesday. We (wifey and I) got the msot baot we can possibly afford and even this is a bit of a streach...so we can't afford to do any BIG repairs on her right away...and the price we negociated is a final price...the owenrs can't/won't go any lower even after survey. Looking through some older paperwork, it seems like the starboard engine smokes at startup. The port engine was majored a while back (late 1990s IIRC) but the starboard has never been rebuilt. What are possible causes of smoking at startup? Think it means the engine is ready for a majoring? Bad injectors? Injector timing? This is causing me great concern because like I said...if she needs any major work...its a deal killer.

 

[Boatsb]

Get an engine survey and know that facts.

 

[captddis]

Most likely low compression but there are other causes as well. The engines will run for years with low compression, but at some point it will need to be addressed.
I don't mean to offend you but if buying the boat is a stretch, are you sure you want to do it? These boats take lots of money to own.
Good luck,
Dave

 

[stormchaser]

Oh, I am defintely getting an engine survey for both mains and the GenSet...I jsut am trying to gain a little knowledge before hand...

 

[stormchaser]

It is no offense...when I say a streach, don't mean literally. I COULD buy the boat for cash, but have chosen not to. This will be our home, full time. I just meant that the baot is at the very top of what we wanted to spend and we expect a couple of years (at least) before having to put major work in at this price.

 

[Pascal]

are you doing a sea trial BEFORE surveys?

if you know that the seller will not negotiate post survey you are back yourself into a corner... after survey, you're going to be out a few thousands (between engine survey, hull survey and haul out) and facing a take it or leaving deal.

do a sea trial before survey to make sure the boat performs are expected and everything works. while a smoky engine on startup is not a deal killer, at least you want to make sure it runs fine, doesn't overheat at cruise, that the smoke stops when warm, etc...

what color smoke? light grey? no blue, right? any fuel on the water after startup

you said "going thru paperwork it seems the engine smokes"... have you even had them start the engines and genny?

without a sea trial before survey, you're taking a big gamble which is even worst if you're budget is limited...

 

[stormchaser]

Sea Trial and Survey are happeing at the same time. The surveyor (i've used him before) is VERRY thorough and actually does about 70% of what an engine survey would do. Then based on sea trial and survey results, we will do engines surveys as needed.

I don't feel like I've backed myself into a corner at all. I negociated a very nice baot at a great deal...as long as there aren't any major repairs that need to be done (which I don't think there are othr than possibly the starbaord engine)...it's the perfect baoat for us. And if soemthing major comes up...I can and will back out and have it cost me nothing more than a survey. Heck, I surveyed/trialed 4 boats before finding the right one last time (a Willard 40 trawler).

 

[Angela]

Having been through the survey process both ways, I HIGHLY recommend that you do your own personal sea trial before spending any money on surveyor's fees. Doing your own personal sea trial will not cost you a dime. It's the seller's responsibility to provide you with a sea trial.

On the first one I surveyed, boat performed horribly - turbo was seized and had a major oil leak - HUGE fire risk. I didn't figure that out until I was a few thousand dollars into the survey costs. Had I done a personal sea trial (before survey), I would have discovered this and walked away before spending the first cent on a surveyor.

I got smarter as I went along. Next one - I did a personal sea trial before bringing on an engine surveyor. We went through the paces, all the rpms, backdown tests, etc. She performed nicely. Then, I arranged for an engine survey. At that time, the surveyor put her through the same paces, as well as doing a survey of the insides of the engines, etc. I knew these boats well enough by then that I didn't get a hull survey since there was nothing a hull surveyor was going to tell me about the boat that I didn't already know.

Before I spend the first cent on a surveyor, I would have, without a doubt, had the boat out and run through her paces to make sure a survey was going to be money well spent. I learned the hard way, but I'm a much more savvy buyer now; well, that is, if I was buying...I found my princess already!

 

[Pascal]

let's see.... hull survey at $20 a ft... $1000
Short haul for surveyor to inspect hull and running gear... $500

Do you really want to spend $1500 for the surveyor to tell you that the boat cant' get over 13kts or the engines went past 180deg at 1500rpm or that one engine was belching blue smoke?

as you said, you had to survey/sea trial 4 boats the last time around.

a pre survey ST doens't cost you anything and can save you $1500... it's a no brainer.

 

[Red Hatt]

If you are buying the 53 1980 in Annop. M.D. be carefull.

 

[philmeup]

Is that Lady Linda ?
PS Tom Hugg,I think out of Baltimore, is an EXCELLENT Detroit guy
Phil
Jace, 84 53,Classic

 

[GJH]

I'll second Tom Hug. Very thorough, plus he will give you a tutorial on maintaining your engines and how they work. Name of his company is MR Power Specialists 410574 1625

George

 

[MikeP]

Smokes on startup? They are Detroits, right? They all smoke on startup. New rebuilds smoke on startup.

I think too much is sometimes made of this issue. If the engines will start quickly without a lot of cranking, then they are likely in perfectly acceptable condition. Every 53 hatt in this marina - I think there are 13 of them - acts exactly the same way at startup. They smoke...depending on the outside air temp, they may smoke a LOT. If they sit at idle they will never quit smoking because they will never heat up.

You have to see what they are actually doing. Here's what I would expect from a TI engine, COLD start (no block heaters and not recently running). A good bit of initial smoke - again, the amount greatly depends on the outside temp, it COULD be in the "kill all mosquitos in the marina" range! Then it should taper off in the first minute or two to a much lower, but still obviously present level. Idling, it will NEVER totally clear. Once the engines are up to a reasonable operating temp cruising along - around 165 or thereabouts, there will be NO smoke at all.

However, if you are cruising along at say 10 knots (no smoke) and the boat hasn't been run in a while except maybe at idle and you go to WOT, you may get a HUGE cloud of smoke for maybe 10 seconds. It will then clear and there will be no more smoke at all under any conditions for the rest of the cruise, regardless of the number of days.

When you return to the marina and depending on how long you have been at idle-maneuver speed, you may start seeing some light smoke again from the exhaust.

This is what I see out of every 53 with 8v71TIs (including ours). If you don't want to smoke on startup, you will need block heaters. If I turn our block heaters (cooling system heaters, not under-the-oil pan heaters) on for maybe 2 hours before a startup, the engine temp will be in the 140 range and there will be essentially no start smoke - much more neighbor-friendly!

DD naturals or TA engines may exhibit different behavior but this is what to expect from TIs.

I am not suggesting that the engine(s) couldn't have a problem but don't panic over some smoke. If you choose to get an engine survey, it should identify any obvious issues. But don't expect too much out of surveys (boat or engine). Most owners immediately find all sorts of things that the surveyors missed. Remember, it's YOUR boat (potentially), not theirs. Who do you think cares more!

Best of Luck and welcome to the Hatt world!

 

[captddis]

Smokes on startup? They are Detroits, right? They all smoke on startup. New rebuilds smoke on startup.

I think too much is sometimes made of this issue. If the engines will start quickly without a lot of cranking, then they are likely in perfectly acceptable condition. Every 53 hatt in this marina - I think there are 13 of them - acts exactly the same way at startup. They smoke...depending on the outside air temp, they may smoke a LOT. If they sit at idle they will never quit smoking because they will never heat up.

You have to see what they are actually doing. Here's what I would expect from a TI engine, COLD start (no block heaters and not recently running). A good bit of initial smoke - again, the amount greatly depends on the outside temp, it COULD be in the "kill all mosquitos in the marina" range! Then it should taper off in the first minute or two to a much lower, but still obviously present level. Idling, it will NEVER totally clear. Once the engines are up to a reasonable operating temp cruising along - around 165 or thereabouts, there will be NO smoke at all.

However, if you are cruising along at say 10 knots (no smoke) and the boat hasn't been run in a while except maybe at idle and you go to WOT, you may get a HUGE cloud of smoke for maybe 10 seconds. It will then clear and there will be no more smoke at all under any conditions for the rest of the cruise, regardless of the number of days.

When you return to the marina and depending on how long you have been at idle-maneuver speed, you may start seeing some light smoke again from the exhaust.

This is what I see out of every 53 with 8v71TIs (including ours). If you don't want to smoke on startup, you will need block heaters. If I turn our block heaters (cooling system heaters, not under-the-oil pan heaters) on for maybe 2 hours before a startup, the engine temp will be in the 140 range and there will be essentially no start smoke - much more neighbor-friendly!

DD naturals or TA engines may exhibit different behavior but this is what to expect from TIs.

I am not suggesting that the engine(s) couldn't have a problem but don't panic over some smoke. If you choose to get an engine survey, it should identify any obvious issues. But don't expect too much out of surveys (boat or engine). Most owners immediately find all sorts of things that the surveyors missed. Remember, it's YOUR boat (potentially), not theirs. Who do you think cares more!

Best of Luck and welcome to the Hatt world!

Sorry Mike but healthy Detroits do not smoke on start up other than a puff on start up.

 

[chris piazza]

I'm sorry Mike but I don't agree. I have 892's with block heaters, which I don't use and get very little smoke at start up. I hold the stop button for about three seconds while spinning the engines and as soon as I release it they start. A good puff of white smoke that completely goes away in a few seconds and they drop down to a nice smooth idle. I do most of my running at 9.5knts, 1150rpm with no smoke. If i do pick it up to 18knts, 1950rpm I get a brief shot of black smoke as the boat is accelerating. Now if you want to talk about trying to stop the oil leaks that another matter.

Chris
Superior Nights 53C

 

[MikeP]

Capt,
Chris

OK! - I am basing my statement only on what I have personally observed. I have never seen an 8V71TI-engined 53 that did NOT exhibit the behavior I described. Perhaps all of them are/were unhealthy. I guess that's possible. But a 60ft Pacemaker down the dock from us in our previous marina had a pair of just-rebuilt 8V71TIs installed - they smoked the same way.

Frankly, I can't see how an 8V71TI can avoid smoking at startup/idle. The injectors are large and the intercoolers (NOT AFTERCOOLERS) ensure that the air temp is very low which reduces fuel atomization/combustion at low speeds/engine temps. The engines will never heat up at idle.

But, it is entirely possible that I have a skewed idea of what a TI should be doing based on what I have seen. What I see as "normal" behavior may, in fact, be NORMAL, but not correct for a "fresh" engine. Perhaps I have never seen a properly rebuilt and functioning marine 8V71TI. I will admit that if I did see a TI start cold/run with no smoke, I would probably immediately order rebuild kits for mine!

SHould have added, mine have around 800 hours since rebuild by the PO.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

TI's will always smoke more than TA's since they run colder at startup due to the raw water running through the intercoolers. That said, a strong TI with good compression and a properly tuned injection system should not smoke to the point that it fogs out the whole marina.

 

[stormchaser]

If you are buying the 53 1980 in Annop. M.D. be carefull.

Ummm...please contact me directly at david.ullrich@gmail.com as soon as possible...

 

[stormchaser]

Is that Lady Linda ?
PS Tom Hugg,I think out of Baltimore, is an EXCELLENT Detroit guy
Phil
Jace, 84 53,Classic

Yesh, it's Lady Linda, but she's in Annapolis, not Baltimore. She seems spectacular! But...if you know something...PLEASE let me know. You can email me directly at david.ullrich@gmail.com

Thanks...

Oh, if you contact me, can you CC my wife Amanda at bonnevillebarbie@gmail.com Thanks!

 

[Angela]

Smokes on startup? They are Detroits, right? They all smoke on startup.

Mine don't.

Why is that? Does it have anything to do with the warm temperatures of South Florida. Mine have never smoked. One time someone was standing on the dock behind my boat smoking and the smoke was coming in through my boat. It's times like that I wish mine did smoke because I was hoping to "smoke" them away. Oh well, the DD rumble drove them away.