New article about ethanol and the economy

[dougl33]

This story has been posted on both the bertram sites (31+33). Thought you Hatt boys would find it interesting as well:

http://www.thestreet.com/_htmlbtb/newsanalysis/investing/10362089.html

It kills me how every article you read about ethanol leaves out the fact that the price for a gallon of ethanol is kept artificially "low" by government subsidies. Its bad enough that it takes more oil to produce ethanol, that you get worse mileage, and more emmisions. Could you imagine if this shit cost an additional $1+ per gallon to boot?

Its a bad idea that gets worse the deeper you dig.

 

[Capt K]

When was your last colonoscopy? You might as well schedule the next one now while you are bent over!

It just keeps getting better, don't it?

Capt K

 

[MikeP]

To paraphrase Dr. Josef Goebbels, " A stupid idea repeated often enough becomes a good one."

 

[dougl33]

I wonder if it will be known as "The great ethanol fiasco of the early 2000's!"?

 

[Pascal]

Mike.. or rather Herr Goebles... nailed it !

what a shame... all it woudl take to reduce our oil consumption are serious incentives to buy diesel cars and SUVs... US manufacturers already sell them in Europe. that would result in imediate 30 to 40% savings per mile... instead, we're being brainwashed about ethanol

speaking of which... I read a post in a bio diesel thread indicating possible issues with using large amount of BioD in fiberglass tanks. something about some alcohol being used in the manufacturing process. has anyone heard that one ?

 

[Genesis]

Making BioD uses Methanol.

If you don't get it all out in the processing you will have much more serious trouble than tank failure.

For commercially-made BioD it is a non-issue, as the fuel won't pass ASTM standards if there is Methanol present.

 

[thoward]

I think they use methanol and veggie oil which leads to methyl esters(biodiesel) as well as some by-products. There is a article in Soundings about e-diesel(diesel ethanol mix). Luckly it is not cost effective to distribute it.

I thought about a biodiesel system for the boat but transport of 100s of gallons of fuel did not seem like a good idea. If I had a place on the water I would do it.....

 

[spartonboat1]

Just how ethanol became raised to hero status is beyond me. But it is one of those "analysis in a vacuum" cases. If the Total Cost to Produce were developed, including production costs. transportation, and true cost/benefit analysis performed, I bet it fails the test. But there is a reason that the minimum wage for a WDC lobbyist is a cool $1M/annum.

Also, I heard yet again the other day that we have sufficient oil shales out West to become somewhat energy independent, since the cost of oil shale conversion is reaching what economists call the "cost of substitution", i.e. darn near the same as out of the ground crude oil production.

Notice I did not say fossil-fuel, as many now believe that crude oil is a function of mother earth's internal processes and not deposits of "fossils".

Finally, a recent new-hire of mine is a former nuclear submarine CPO and Weaps officer. He thinks we are really missing a bet not building a nuclear power generation capability, such as the (ssshhh) French have. The waste is far more stable than it was leaving the ground and is a much smaller volume than it was originally when mined. Modern one-design nuclear plants should be far safer that in the past.

Ok, tangent kicks in. I asked this former CPO what he thought of the Gene Hackman/Denzel Washington Crimson Tide movie featured on a missile carrier nuclear submarine. He said that as weaps officer he carried a 45cal side arm and if he did have an order to shoot and anyone interfered, they would have been dead in about 10 secs. I think in Crimson Tide the final component of the message to shoot the birds was incomplete, so they had literary license.

The next election should be a very good spectator sport (I hope)....

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Mike.. or rather Herr Goebles... nailed it !

what a shame... all it woudl take to reduce our oil consumption are serious incentives to buy diesel cars and SUVs... US manufacturers already sell them in Europe. that would result in imediate 30 to 40% savings per mile... instead, we're being brainwashed about ethanol

speaking of which... I read a post in a bio diesel thread indicating possible issues with using large amount of BioD in fiberglass tanks. something about some alcohol being used in the manufacturing process. has anyone heard that one ?

Diesel cars are now a real possibility here in the US. Europe has been running ULSD for some time now and most of the engines over there require it. Now that we have switched to Ultra Low Sulfer fuel, they could start importing those vehicles. It's just a matter of time and marketing. Diesel cars got a bad reputation in the late '70's and early '80's when GM tried to push off gas engines that were converted to diesel. That is what many people think of when you mention diesel cars, not to mention noise, black smoke and poor acceleration. Once they get a few of the new diesels into the marketplace, they will probably change the minds of many.

 

[34Hatt]

When was your last colonoscopy? You might as well schedule the next one now while you are bent over!

It just keeps getting better, don't it?

Capt K

Well now that sums it up the best Short and simple!!!

 

[Maynard Rupp]

Diesel cars are now a real possibility here in the US. Europe has been running ULSD for some time now and most of the engines over there require it. Now that we have switched to Ultra Low Sulfer fuel, they could start importing those vehicles. It's just a matter of time and marketing. Diesel cars got a bad reputation in the late '70's and early '80's when GM tried to push off gas engines that were converted to diesel. That is what many people think of when you mention diesel cars, not to mention noise, black smoke and poor acceleration. Once they get a few of the new diesels into the marketplace, they will probably change the minds of many.

I sure hope you are right Sky, but those know nothing, artist liberals, are sold on that stupid Ethanol. They also think electric cars are cool because they don't polute. "Why, you just plug it in to a wall outlet and presto, you have a non-poluting source of energy". Bah, they just don't know enough to know they don't know anything.

 

[MikeP]

Right-on Maynard! The non-polluting electric car is a great example of how foolish and gullible people can be. But I've finally learned that EVERYTHING is about money, not about doing what is right or best. SOMEBODY is making a lot of money pushing the current scare-fest re global warming and "carbon footprints." And people buy into this Cr@p. Oh PUHLEASE!!

And then the news media focuses on Paris Hilton as opposed to the fact that it looks like the cold war may be starting again. However, I'm glad to hear she's found God now and will suddenly be concerned about helping others. Wonder if she'll become "Mother Paris?" Has a nice ring to it.

This morning a big CNN news item - it was repeated several times - was the fact that a red-winged blackbird was dive bombing folks in some city. The birds had a nest close to wherever people normally walked and was protecting its nest. AND THIS IS IMPORTANT?

Last weekend at piney narrows I was walking to Annie's resturant from the marina and a RW blackbird divebombed me on my way to and again from the resturant (not the same RWB, I'm sure - maybe a relative?). It never occurred to me to call CNN to get my 15 minutes of fame.

Recently in NYC someone complained because one of the falcons popped a pigeon in front of children in one of the parks. THe parents complained to the city that this was a terrible thing for children to see. Does no one ever venture outside anymore so that this becomes "news?"

Uh Oh...I see I'm starting to step up onto one of my largest soapboxes. I'll stop now.

 

[67hat34c]

we need solar, wind and nuke energy. charging electric car with these sources will have very little overall emissions. Gov built a huge nuke waste storage facility in old salt mine, the thing is freaking huge but not in use yet. should be secure, keep the freaking ragheads out.

You all will not like this but the days of high power fast cars needs to come to an end. we dont need to accelerate from 0-60 in 2 seconds, yes it is cool but it is also killing the planet and costing us a fortune in fuel. Our government needs to slam the door on the huge gas guzzelers and mandate very high economy across the board. also will have to slow down the highway traffic. sorry guys but if we want to live and get away from the Raggers then we will all have to suck it up and do it. You all know this is the only real solution eventhough you may not want to admitt it.

I drive to the coast to run my gas guzzeling boat but i try to save where i can. I drive well below posted speed limit and use cruise controll. if i drive 55 on cool morning i average 30mph in my Acura MDX which is a full size suv. costs me just 15min of travel time, i did my part to save.

 

[Will]

So, here are two thoughts.

1. Maybe we should go back to the old days with everyone riding horses and buggies. No dependence on foreign oil. But then, we can only imagine what the freeways would be like during the rush hour. And, watch where you step when crossing the street.

2. I understand that Rudolph Diesel had at one time, considered running his engines on hemp (pot) oil. Now that's an idea. Can you imagine how happy folks would be during their morning and evening commutes? People couldn't wait to get into their cars and go to work. Never a bad day on the highway.

Will

 

[labrador]

I read a report the other day that a Chinese co. was already producing oil shale in Canada and they are building several refineries next to the tar sands field. They also bought a refinery in Ohio. Why do we have to be the last ones on the bandwagon! We have the largest amount of oil in shale in the world by far!!!! Chalk it up to another treehugger victory and the nonsense about global warming I guess.

 

[67hat34c]

they already tried the hemp car, didnt you see Cheech and Chong? Remember the van?


Global warming is real, anyone can see the change in climate and simply the color of the air,yes the air now has color. use to go away but now it is there all the time. Astronauts who flew in the 60's and 70's that retuned to space in the last 10yrs noted the difference. You cant realy expect minimal environmental damage with the huge amount of crap we keep pumping into the air.

 

[labrador]

No Comment!

 

[MikeP]

Global warming IS real - the cause is the issue. Scientists have proven that the last time the earth was this warm was 550,000 years ago!

I have no problem with that at all except...

We weren't here, who made it that warm back then?

As I said, lot's of money to be made in all this.

 

[thoward]

I will be the first to admit my ecological footprint is large. I would have no problem with a small diesel meter maid type truck for around town but if I am going out of town it is in the 4 door 4x4. Lots of our issues are consumer driven. Where do you shop? What does it take to climate control that store? The Mall? The Supermarket? Gas station? While we are at it, does anyone know how much methane the average cow produces? How about all the plactics used to package food? Does the butcher wrap your meat in freezer paper?

Global warming and oil dependence are two very different issues but get intertwined like with the battery car. When it comes to cars, until the gov. make it possible to produce a light car with a small engine this issue will remain. That is impossible with the safety laws. The only way we will ever see a substantial reduction in horsepower is to force the large overpowered vehicles off the road. Well, I am not going to drive a low hp 800lb car if billybob is still driving his 400hp 6000lb truck on the same roads.

I would agree wind power seems to be a cool deal. I would be ok with wind mills dotting the landscape. Heck if someone was smart they would figure a way to make an intergrated solar roof that could be mass produced and installed.....

 

[Boatsb]

How about tying the power you use to your products and services. If you import alot of product import your power too. Wall mart can build a cable for power to come from China

There are houses being built here with 4-5 ton AC units blowing on the people laying by the pool OUTSIDE. People say if they can afford it then let them. Soem say the same about us an the fuel we burn. How do we push people to conserve energy if they don't seem to care about the cost?