Rudder Work Labor Hours

[rsmith]

Cable or cracker?

 

[capttonyf]

Cable or cracker?

You don't eat it. It's usually long, strong and can be used to lift things.

Tony

 

[jim rosenthal]

Apropos of this, some of you will remember the thread I had going when I was having trouble with a leaking PSS seal. It turned out that the rotor needed to be moved to compress the bellows, and retightened. Although I had to pay for a second haulout, the bill from the tech who actually did the work was very reasonable. So there ARE folks out there who really only do charge for their actual time on the job.

 

[capttonyf]

Just sent them an email with some of my issues. I'll see how they respond.

One of their workers worked 10.23 hours on only our boat on May 19th. Good employee looking for overtime I guess. That just happens to be the same employee that was listed for 3.5 hours to replace rudder packing on ruddders that were already out of the boat to be installed and Repacked on May 26th. The guy that installed them on the 26th also billed for repacking the rudders.

I still can't get over some of this stuff. 25.1 Hours, over 3 days to install dripless shaft seals, and one shaft was already billed and out of the boat on another item. 12 hours to replace a seacock and 22.6 hours to clean the bottom and metal. Then under other items the metal is shoing prepped and cleaned again. I'm just amazed on some of this.

I really hope they see their mistakes and make this right.

Tony

 

[saltshaker]

When I had my 46C repowered I was billed 16 hours for removal and installation of ER bulkhead insulation. That's what the yard guy submitted to the owner who was away that week. It was an interesting conversation when I told him I did the work myself and had pictures and video to prove it.

 

[capttonyf]

When I had my 46C repowered I was billed 16 hours for removal and installation of ER bulkhead insulation. That's what the yard guy submitted to the owner who was away that week. It was an interesting conversation when I told him I did the work myself and had pictures and video to prove it.

I know. Lots of little areas and situations where errors can be made. I just want to make sure we're not the ones paying for it.

 

[GaryNW]

absurd. The install dripless seals hours fries me! I believe I could do it in 2 hours after drinking half-a-gallon of vodka.

Boat "pros" are a major rip-off. Consider, a few years back I took in my 2002 Duramax silverado 4x4 to Chevy dealer for defered stuff. Oil/filter change, trans fluid and filter, differentials fluids replace, transfer case fluid replace, cooling system flushed, new fluid, cabin air filter replaced, chassis lube, real nice wash job, and new Malibu loaner for entire day. Published labor rate. 105/hr. With my 10% state sales tax, under $700. And their techs know EXACTLY what they are doing. AND, new car dealers do not make money on selling new cars. They make it on used cars and the servive dept.

 

[Boatsb]

I'd like to see you pull the shafts out the couplings, run the cooling hoses and put it all back together in 2 hours. That's as absurd at the 13 or so they charged for stuffing rudder boxes.

Be reasonable and don't try to be superman.

 

[GaryNW]

Nonsense, "pro". As I see it the shafts were already pulled because of other work- so how many times must we pay for shaft pull? The hose work is a nothing. BTW, I forgot fuel and engine air filter on my truck work.
Gary

 

[ian w]

I have had very good experiences with Marina Mile Yachting Centre in Fort Lauderdale.The main man is called David and he gave me a very reasonable quote for a good deal of work and the bill was exactly as quoted

 

[rsmith]

I've said it here before, but if you just throw the keys at the yard and walk away more than likely you are going to get hosed. People talk about how good this place or that place is but any yard is only as good as the people who work there. And people change move to different yards management changes owner mandates change, who knows ? But if you or a trusted advocate for you and your baby are not on site LOOK OUT!!!
I don't know if it happens today but our first haul out was at a yard on the New River in Lauderdale. I was 21 at the time and a 50' boat back then was huge. In fact the biggest boat in Lauderdale was Malcolm Forbes "highlander" at 88'. People always assumed I was the captain or mate. The yard finished up the work and I went up to the office to pay the bill. The girl handed me a receipt and an envelope marked "for the captain" the envelope contained roughly 10% of the bill in cash. I asked what it was for and she told me it was the captains referral fee for bringing the boat to the yard. I started thinking about this and it gives the captain no incentive to keep the cost down for the owner. Whether this practice continues today in the larger yards I don't know, but wouldn't be supprised.

 

[drburke]

Tony, I am looking forward to your report on how this works out; the whole thing makes me uneasy.

My first thought is "who bills to a hundredth of an hour?" Total BS--I rarely work at an hourly rate and even then round to a quarter-hour at a minimum.

By their numbers, the 6 Cutless bearings at 16.39 hours is 16 hours, 23 minutes, and 24 seconds--what a crock.

Based on Angela's idea, next time I am in such a position I will get a bunch of GoPro cameras and record everything, and later get actual hours on disputed times.

DAN

 

[saltshaker]

I know. Lots of little areas and situations where errors can be made. I just want to make sure we're not the ones paying for it.

This wasn't an accidental error. The worker submitted this as work he performed. He insisted he did it as he had to justify what he was doing for those 16 hours when the boss was out of town. I had a friend working with me who happened to shoot some video plus there was a guy re-powering his boat next to mine who confirmed that next to no work was done by the yard on my boat durring that week. The workers fill out their slips and hand them into the office then we get billed. Someone should verify the work and time is accurate and billable.

 

[capttonyf]

Tony, I am looking forward to your report on how this works out; the whole thing makes me uneasy.

My first thought is "who bills to a hundredth of an hour?" Total BS--I rarely work at an hourly rate and even then round to a quarter-hour at a minimum.

By their numbers, the 6 Cutless bearings at 16.39 hours is 16 hours, 23 minutes, and 24 seconds--what a crock.

Based on Angela's idea, next time I am in such a position I will get a bunch of GoPro cameras and record everything, and later get actual hours on disputed times.

DAN

I'm still working on it now. They're not going by hours, I know this now. There going off of what they want to bill a job out at. Then when I asked for workers hours they threw the times on it. They gave me approx estimates if I were to do each individual task. That's basically what they're trying to bill out as labor hours. BUT BUT BUT, they're not taking into account if you did multiple items that overlap and are similar.

Example: Rudder Packing. I could believe 3.43 Hours IF, they were ONLY doing rudder packing because they have to pull the fish box , clean area up, take gland apart, pack, reassemble and put fish box back in. Or 6.5 hours IF they were only doing lower bearings, or 6 hours IF only doing upper bearings, 8.8 hours to remove and reinstall rudders because you have to remove box and disasseble each time if your only doing one job Item at different time of the boats life But not a total of ALL those hours to bebuild rudders if your doing it ALL at once because all that labor overlaps.

I'm just going to put it all in writing here because they're trying to justify it now based of individual estimates. Here you go.

Item #2 Haul Pressure wash block and apply one coat of paint
Flat rate $1305.00
Item #3 Bottom Prep. Scrape, Sand, cleaning, Running gear
Parts 196.37 Labor 1401.20/22.6 Hours $1597.57
Item #4 Apply Prop Speed
Parts 575.33 217/3.5 Hours $792.33
Item #5 Remove and Install Props Dial Indicate Shafts
Parts 2978.60 Labor 405.504.3 & .5 Hours $3874.10
Item #6 Inspect Thru hulls
Labor 180.00/2 hours $180.00
Item #7 Install Customer supplied Bilge pump
Parts 12.15 Labor 315.00/3.5 Hours $327.15
Item #8 Remove and Install Rudders
Parts 3.70 Labor 792/8.8 Hours $795.70
Item #9 Replace Lower Rudder Bearings
Parts 4.31 Labor 591/6.57 Hours $595.13
Item #10 Replace Upper Bearings and Collars
Parts 567.62 Labor 553/5.74 & 1.0 Hours $1120.62
Item #11 Replace Rudder Packing
Parts 238.25 Labor 308.00/3.43 Hours $546.25
Item #12 Replace Worn Tiller Rod Ends
Parts 205.17 Labor 171.00/1.9 Hours $376.17
Item #13 Replace all 6 Cutluss Bearings
Parts 1188.79 Labor 1639/17.8 & 1.0 Hours $1639.00
Item #14 Replace Main engine Seacock
Parts 811.03 Labor 1143.50/12.5 & .5 Hours $1954.53
Item #15 Acid Wash Waterline
Parts $75.00
Item #16 Replace/Reded rudder bolt bonding wire.
Parts 44.84 Labor 180/2 hours $224.84
Item #17 Furnish and Install New Port Shaft
Parts 3511.35 Labor 361/4.0 Hours $3414.00
Item #18 Furnish and install New Shaft Seal Assemblies
Parts 1195.50 Labor 2218/24.4 & .6 Hours $2218.20
Item #19 Polish and Wax Hull
Outside Contractor $630.00
Item #20 Apply 2nd Coat paint to waterline areas
Parts 178.00 Labor 124/2 hours $302.53
Item #21 Furnish and Install Zincs
Parts 209.15 Labor 86.80/1.40 $295.95
Item #22 Service Charge and Shipyard Repair Liability
$960.06

TOTAL $25,577.07

All that rudder work overlaps.. Plus over 3 Full days of labor to replace shaft seals when one shaft was already charged hours to be uncoupled and removed. It's crazy. If anyone else thats performed some of this work thinks some of these ours are high, what do you think is fair.

Thanks

Tony

 

[capttonyf]

Sorry forgot to mention that list of work is a total of over 130 Hours and those hours don't include Pressure washing boat and painting the bottom, or Waxing it. That's over 3.25 Full 40 hour Work Weeks.

Tony

 

[dsharp]

It's hard to understand the bill. Did they put a new set of wheels on? What was the length of the shaft? What material? Aquamet 22 or something else?What do they charge per foot for haulout? I've never been a fan of charging by the foot for a bottom job. Some boats need a light sanding and some have multiple layers of bottom paint. I was born into boatyard hell and started doing bottom jobs before I could drive. Three men can do two 46' Hats in an 8 hour day. The rudder work is hard to say. Like you said it's a cramped place to work and if the rudder shafts are bent at all it can turn into a lengthy job. The hours charged seem to be on the high side but I got out 30 years ago. I had no desire to buy the yard. It was too hard to get anyone to work and I don't imagine it's gotten better.

 

[captddis]

When I worked for the Hatteras dealer we had to bill a full eight hour day no matter what. The service manager would often give us a work order to put the unproductive hours on.

I would often put the dead hours on " building maintenence" or " stock boats" that way the cust was not charged.

Sometimes a PIA would get extra hours on their bill and a nice person had some removed.

 

[cattledog]

I recently had some work done on my boat - basically grinding out some minor damage in the Awlgrip paint on the hull, fairing it back up, then priming, repainting then wet sanding etc.

I recall walking the yard manager through what I wanted done and I was astounded at how quickly he could call off the exact cost of each repair. It didn't seem to matter whether one repair was done or 10, he knew the price for each one right off the top of his head.

It was evident to me that they don't really bill by the hour, even though they offer a quoted hourly rate, they much prefer to just bill per task using amounts they either make up or in some cases maybe look up from a book somewhere.

This is consistent with how auto mechanics work in a dealership setting. You are charged per task, and if a mechanic can do the task faster then they get the full number of hours billed for that task. Mechanics are happiest when they work 8 hours and get to bill 13-15 hours for the day. They are generally NOT happy being paid 8 hours for 8 hours of work.

I'm not sure how to deal with this. I would really prefer to pay the actual number of hours each task takes, working within an estimate provided for the cost. If they go into the job and find more problems then of course the cost would go up.

For the paint repairs, they could certainly do 5-6 separate repairs all handled at the same time in much fewer hours than doing them all at different times.

Basically we are dealing with an industry here without enough competition, certainly in my area - blame the environmental types to some degree. I can't imagine all the hassles of running a boat yard with all the chemicals and other nonsense. Not to mention the fact that waterfront property is out of this world expensive too. I understand they have a lot of expenses but posting an hourly rate, then billing for more hours than actually worked is not OK and leaves a customer feeling ripped off.

I like the idea of having someone watch the boat and log actual hours but try doing that and maintaining a good relationship with yard at the same time.

Chris

 

[Boatsb]

I bill by the hours worked. If I do not supply the parts I bill for time lost due to missing or wrong parts too.

When I uncover problems that take longer and more work I bill accordingly. With the cost of doing business, insurance, tools and other overhead I don't get rich fixing boats. When a customer is billed correctly and does not pay it hurts everyone because those cost need to be absorbed. I'm sure everyone here feels their work has a value. They should feel the same about the work they hire out.

By the way. I sell electronics. Many manufacturers have a set sell price. You do not save money buying on the Internet and having someone else install it. The installer has to make a living too and part of their income is from the sale. Tools and test gear doesn't just wash up on the shore.

 

[capttonyf]

I bill by the hours worked. If I do not supply the parts I bill for time lost due to missing or wrong parts too.

When I uncover problems that take longer and more work I bill accordingly. With the cost of doing business, insurance, tools and other overhead I don't get rich fixing boats. When a customer is billed correctly and does not pay it hurts everyone because those cost need to be absorbed. I'm sure everyone here feels their work has a value. They should feel the same about the work they hire out.

By the way. I sell electronics. Many manufacturers have a set sell price. You do not save money buying on the Internet and having someone else install it. The installer has to make a living too and part of their income is from the sale. Tools and test gear doesn't just wash up on the shore.

. I agree fully, people should be paid for the hours worked, just as I expect to be paid for work I perform. The problem I'm having is I don't believe these hours. There was no damage to the bottom. The rudders were straight and I was told everything went smooth and as to be expected other then 1 rudder was stuck and took a little work but they got it. As far as the props and shaft, I have no problem with those rates at all. That went to the prop shop. The wheels were 2 1/4 inch with spacers from a previous owner instead of 2 inch like they should be. We were never told. Over the years I guess yards assumed we knew and put them back on. One ended up stress cracking a shaft to we had the prop shop retool them and make them 2 inch and matched them to the shafts.

My issues lie with the labor hours charged. I could see the hours if they only did one task because you have a lot to do, but when everything is apart you no longer need to charge dissasembly and reassembly for every task as if your doing them all at different times. You don't have to drop the rudders to the lower bearings if there already dropped for the upper bearings, and you don't have to take the rudders all apart again to put packing in the gland. The way the bill set up is each task billed separately as if nothing else was going on. There is overlap of hours they're not accounting for.

I will be talking with them again tomorrow. To try to work this through. It's funny he said he knew nothing about any warranty/yard estimate Books dealers use. I told him with dealers the factory has techs that do a certain repair multiple times and average it out. That's what they'll pay you for warranty work. They'll pay what's considered to be normal hours per job. If their techs averaged 5 hours to do say an engine repair and yours takes 12 hours then their laying 5 and you need to find a faster mechanic. He had no idea what I was talking about, or so he claims.

Tony