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Re-Power

  • Thread starter Thread starter Escapade
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Escapade

Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2006
Messages
21
Status
  1. OWNER - I own a Hatteras Yacht
Hatteras Model
41' DOUBLE CABIN (1962 - 1965)
Have a 1964 41' double cabin. Hope to do a full repaint and repower.
Question: looking for recommendations on new engines. Will only consider diesel.

Currently have Crysler 130HP. Like more speed, thinking of going to 200 or 250s. Also looking for recommendations. Would love to get upto 17-20 knots, if possible

Patrick
 
A pair of 250 HP B series 6cyl Cummins would be nice. Tried and true model. They may not provide that speed however.
 
Reman Cummins 370HP 6BTA's or 450C's would be nice. Not sure if the 450C's will fit in the tri-cabin but they do in the 41C.
 
They would fit, Jack, but I think the extra expense wouldn't be worth it. He will get the speed he wants from the B series diesels and burn less fuel. They will weigh less and fit just perfectly. He may even be able to keep the shafts etc that he already has, although not the Velvet Drive gears that are probably in there. 250 diesel hp ought to be good for 450 ft/lbs of torque, which will get him where he needs, I am willing to bet.
 
give me a call about the repower and paint We have done 7 boat this year.
 
250 diesel hp ought to be good for 450 ft/lbs of torque, which will get him where he needs, I am willing to bet.


For education only...torque doesn't matter. It's the HP number.
 
For education only...torque doesn't matter. It's the HP number.


I would argue that each is somewhat a function of the other therefore .....
 
i may be wrong but isn't cheaper and easier to just buy a new boat? with the price of boats these days you could get a larger, faster boat made in the 80s for probably the same cost.
 
i may be wrong but isn't cheaper and easier to just buy a new boat? with the price of boats these days you could get a larger, faster boat made in the 80s for probably the same cost.
Yes and no. You will be able to buy a newer boat and it would be a smatter move financially. However you are still buying a used boat not a refit boat. A repower and paint job on an old boat will never return anywhere near the investment. This is a project you do because you love the boat and find value in having her refit to your liking. If you can find one that was already done, that could give you the best of both worlds
 
I would argue that each is somewhat a function of the other therefore .....

Really? What does torque have to do with power when we talk about electricity? Power is the rate that work is done. Torque is just a force.

I can do the same amount of work with 1lb-ft of torque or do it with 10000000000lb-ft....the power required is the same.
 
On an engine they are linked by certain physical properties. I know this caus it's on google


Torque and power are inescapably linked by the fact that horsepower equals torque (in ft-pounds) times RPM divided by 5250, so people who talk as if they are independent are full of it. If you have a given torque curve for an engine, you have the horsepower curve also. Knowing how these two numbers work with each other lets you can poke through some of the BS you might read.

First, as usual, a few definitions.

Torque is a twisting force applied to an object, like a wheel or a crankshaft. Note that motion is not required for torque to exist! If you stand on a lug wrench that is on a frozen lug bolt, you are applying a torque to that bolt even though there may be no movement. For our purposes, we will consider that torque is measured in pounds-force feet (lbf-ft) meaning the equivalent of a given force, in pounds, acting on the end of a lever of length in feet. For example, standing with 180 pounds body weight on a lug wrench one foot long yields 180 lbf-ft of torque. A child of 90 pounds standing on a two-foot lug wrench applies the same torque.

Work is the application of force over a distance. Unfortunately, the units used are the same (pounds times feet) but we write this as ft-lb just to distinguish it. The real difference is that in this case, the "feet" part means feet of movement. If you push on a car with 100 pounds of force and maintain that for 30 feet, you have done 3000 ft-lb of work. An easier example is lifting a weight (in pounds) a given distance (in feet). If you use some sort of mechanical advantage, like a winch, you will do the same amount of work because by halving the effort required, you will have to double the distance through which you apply the force to achive the same objective.

Power is the application of work within a finite time. 550 ft-lb of work in one second is one horsepower.

So, let's first go through the numbers to get from torque to horsepower. Pushing with 87.5 pounds (force) on the end of our 1-foot lug wrench applies a torque of 87.5 lbf-ft. No motion yet, so no work and no power. But now let's say the lug bolt loosens slightly and starts to turn, but that same 87.5 pounds of force is needed to keep the wrench turning. For every revolution of the wrench, you are applying 87.5 pounds of force over a distance of (2 * pi * 1 foot) or 6.28 feet, the circumference of the circle that your hand is making, for a total of 550 ft-lb of work. It's only when this system is actually moving that work is being performed. From here, it's a quick step to say that if you work fast enough to turn that wrench once per second, then you are doing 550 ft-lb of work per second, which means you are applying one horsepower.

By the definitions we can see that HP is directly proportional to torque and RPM. "Directly proportional" means there may be a multiplyer involved, so let's find it using our example numbers, remembering that 1 revolution per second is 60 RPM:

torque * RPM * constant = hp
87.5 lbf-ft * 60 rev/min * X = 1 hp
X = 1 / (60 * 87.5) = 1/5250
torque * RPM * 1/5250 = hp
hp = (torque * RPM) / 5250
For internal combustion engines, torque is always given at a certain RPM because they can't generate any torque when they aren't moving. Once they are running fast enough to sustain their own operation, the force that they are exerting against a load can be measured, and the speed at which they are turning can be measured, so the torque (and therefore power) numbers become known.

So, if there is such a fixed relationship between torque and power, why do some people say that a certain engine has lots of power, but no torque? Remember that the connection between torque and power is rotational speed. A sportbike motor might generate 150hp at 14,000 RPM but the torque at that RPM is very small; about 53 ft-lbs. In comparison, a large-displacement twin might peak at 100 hp at 7000 RPM. The torque applied at the twin's 7000 rpm, 75 ft-lbs, is greater than the torque applied at the sport bike's 14,000 rpm but the sport bike makes up for it with a lot more engine speed and ends up with more horsepower.

The street, though, complicates things because the sport bike will probably not be ridden at 14,000 RPM. At 5000 RPM, the twin would likely have more power. This is an artificial handicap; the sport bike wasn't meant to be ridden at that speed since it generates its power by sending the RPM part of the equation sky-high. For street riding, the twin is easier to ride, less prone to stalling as you pull away from a light, and you get that satisfying "oomph" when you twist the throttle. But as the RPM increases, the twin runs out of breath and the race bike, although the torque is low and probably getting lower, continues to make more and more power until it hits its peak at 14000.

[Insert dyno charts for comparison showing less torque but more power for sportbikes at high RPM]

Engines are designed for their intended use. Our twins are designed to yield fairly high torque values at low RPM, because this makes them easy to ride in day-to-day life, and Harley-Davidsons have their torque concentrated even lower in the RPM range than BMWs do. Low-end torque is accomplished by several design traits, one being small valves and intake tubes which create high air velocity into the cylinder for good fuel mix at low speed.

Those effects tend to become a restriction at high RPM, which means that engines intended for high RPM end up with larger valves, larger air intakes, smaller cylinders and other things that let them continue to breathe when other engines start to gasp. Race bike engines have fairly small displacement, which limits the torque that can be produced at the crank. They apply that torque at much higher speeds to get high horsepower (and who can argue that those bikes don't accelerate quickly?).

To a lesser extent, BMW varies these techniques for different bikes. The GS series has narrower intake tubes to give a faster intake charge, giving better fuel/air mixing and better torque at low RPM. Since this becomes a bottleneck at higher RPM, the "power" engine in the RS and RT bikes have larger intake tubes. Swapping the GS tubes into an RS or RT is a common retrofit, as it makes the bike torquier at low RPM where most of us ride. Newer technology in cars, like variable valve timing and variable intake tract length, can give motors the best of both worlds by increasing torque at higher RPM without giving it up at low RPM. Incidentally, Honda has variable valve timing on a motorcycle now.

But to get back to the main point, it is power that moves our bikes down the road. Yes, torque provides the pushing force through the drivetrain, but it needs to happen at some given speed, and those two factors define "power."

Why does torque drop after a certain RPM?

Torque starts to decrease because the engine cannot breathe as well. Due to the speed, the cylinder does not fill with air as well. A designer can get around this problem with "tuned intake" which sets up a resonance to pack the cylinder with air, but it only happens at a certain RPM. The next evolution of design is to make a variable system which packs the cylinders with air at all RPM; this is usually called "variable tuned intake runners" or something like that and involves valves which open and close to create a different size for the airbox and manifold.

Why does power continue to increase after torque decreases?

Remember that the power is essentially the product of the RPM and the torque. When the torque peaks at a certain RPM and starts to drop off, the decrease is small and is not enough to offset the increasing RPM, so the overall product still increases. Eventually the decrease in torque becomes large enough that it outweighs the increase in RPM and we see the power start to drop. Because of this, the power peak will always be after the torque peak.



SEE I TOLD YOU.
 
OK, I'm no longer full of it. Seriously, thanks for a well-written post. I knew they were related but not in the way you describe.

I think 450Cs are more than he needs. He should be able to get the performance he wants with 370 B Cummins. We have a Classic Yacht Club member who repowered his 53MY with 450Cs (I think these are 480Cs, but the same basic diesel) and she just flies. Our friend doesn't need that much muscle in a 41MY- and the expense saved will be worthwhile.
 
I've only owned my 41 TC for a month now and already I like the boat well enough to believe that if it were to become necessary, a re-power could begin to make some sense some time in the future.
 
FWIW I have been on a few 41's. Most Convertibles but a few MY's. If a convertible runs well with 400-425 HP there is no reason a MY on the same hull with more weight would be better served with less HP.

One of the nicest 41's is owned by a member here with a pair of 425 cats and it runs in the mid to high 20's at WOT. Cruises in the low 20's and would be the best measure I can think of.

The higher HP 5.9 may be a great choice as it is a bit lighter than the 8.2 and fits nicely.
 
On an engine they are linked by certain physical properties. I know this caus it's on google

By the definitions we can see that HP is directly proportional to torque and RPM

From your post you can see torque needs RPM associated with it to have any meaning.

Why is it that in all boat propulsion applications, locomotive, airplane engines, gensets, pumps, etc, etc....that only POWER is given.

One cares about torque to ensure components like shafts are big enough to handle it.

So back to my original point (as proven by the quote following this sentence), torque is of no concern when determining how big of an engine to put in a boat. Do you see the torque painted on the back of outboard engines next to the HP rating? Do you see the torque curve etched on the nameplate of diesel engine or electric motors?


"FWIW I have been on a few 41's. Most Convertibles but a few MY's. If a convertible runs well with 400-425 HP there is no reason a MY on the same hull with more weight would be better served with less HP."
 
From your post you can see torque needs RPM associated with it to have any meaning.

Why is it that in all boat propulsion applications, locomotive, airplane engines, gensets, pumps, etc, etc....that only POWER is given.

One cares about torque to ensure components like shafts are big enough to handle it.

So back to my original point (as proven by the quote following this sentence), torque is of no concern when determining how big of an engine to put in a boat. Do you see the torque painted on the back of outboard engines next to the HP rating? Do you see the torque curve etched on the nameplate of diesel engine or electric motors?







"FWIW I have been on a few 41's. Most Convertibles but a few MY's. If a convertible runs well with 400-425 HP there is no reason a MY on the same hull with more weight would be better served with less HP."




I guess HP is an easier measure for most of our comparisons and conversations but the power and torque curves seem to be related.
 
I guess HP is an easier measure for most of our comparisons and conversations but the power and torque curves seem to be related.

Agreed, they are related. But at the end of the day, what do we want out of our engine? Power...

Really, the whole torque curve stuff seems to come into play in cars because the engine has to operate over a very large RPM range. The gearing is best arranged to match the torque curve.

Boats/gensets/planes are constant rpm machines.
 
Just my cents worth. Our 42C running tired old 903 cummins cruises 17 knots at 2200 RPM. The engines rated at 400 HP, and are original. I accept the fact it will never be a speed boat, but then at my age I'm not in much of a hurry. I do not know what the difference between the 42C and a 41, I doubt it is a huge difference. Personally I'd like a bit more horsepower but I can't imagine having less on our particular boat.
 
HP = (torque (ft lbs)) x rpm)/5252

oops..I missed that there was a second page in this thread....and Scott's post....good job....


I think diesel engines in general develop greater HP and greater torque at lower RPM than typical gas engines...maybe because of bigger displacement...hence greater bore/stroke.
 
Last edited:
There are a number of great articles on the web that explain the advantages and disadvantafes of having a gasser versus a diesel. Here is the bottom line: If you will be doing long trips frequently, by the diesels. If you are doing long trips in frequently or short trips frequently, gas engines will be fine.

I have a 1965 41DC as well. My top speed is 20knots, but I nevet go WOT. On a 45 year old engine, I know to be careful and gentle. I cruise around 10-13 knots depending on huch much of a hurry I am in.

I have redone my boat top tp bottom, but engine repower is where I draw the line, especially if fuel type is going to change. I have tought about the engine question a few times and here is the just of it:
1-Keep your existing engines, take them to a machine shop have them re built. By far, the cheapest option, and you will still get 20-50% more power. (do a compression test to see how much more power you'll get with this option) (I am guessing $2500 per engine)
2-Take those engines out, and put 454s. 1/4 the price of diesels, plenty of HP. ($5000 per engine, plus new mounts?)
3-Most expensive option: Diesels: You may have to change your fuel lines, tanks, will definielty need to change your tansmission, generator, and since diesels are higher than gassers, you may have to lift the salon flooring, and you will also have to cut the side of the boat to put the new engines. (Cost per engine alone $15K, another 5 for genny, cutting out the site and refit : $15-20K)= NOT WORTH IT. If you love the boat (I love mine), consider options 1 or 2.
 

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