Rudder Toe-In?

[Nonchalant1]

What is the proper rudder toe-in for a 1978 53MY and how do you check and adjust it? It would sure be nice if it could be done in the lazarette instead of having to haul the boat.

Doug Shuman

 

[yachtsmanbill]

Hey Doug... how ya been? I know that when I made new rudders and welded the blades to the OEM stems for my Roamer, the keyways were indexed with the blades, and one was set at 45 degrees to the line. Theres no way to guarantee that Bubba did the same thing so any adjustments would be a crap shoot from inside. Just MHO. I trust all else is well. Are you doing any clock / barometer work this winter (hint hint)? ws

 

[smoothmove]

Hey Willy

I thought your Roamer was aluminum. That sure looks like steel in those pics.
Eric

 

[Nonchalant1]

Bill,

I was rather hoping that the keyway was true to the rudder plane so I could measure between the centerlines of the rudder arms, and adjust the trailing connector arm between them if necessary.

You lost me on "clock/barometer work". We're going south on the boat to Sarasota and the Keys this winter. Can't do Bahamas because our dog has a reaction to all the shots required for a Bahamas permit. She only has rabies vaccinations, and a letter from the vet stating that the other shots will kill her. I've been doing lots of repeater pocketwatch work this summer though. WHen the stock market went to hell, so did the international antique pocketwatch market. I bought an 1820 solid gold Breguet repeater for $974, fixed it to running and repeating perfectly and sold it for $3,001 to some guy in Peru three months later.

Doug

 

[yachtsmanbill]

Re: Hey Willy

I thought your Roamer was aluminum. That sure looks like steel in those pics.
Eric

LOOK CLOSER... thats some rust from wet packing while in storage against monel shafting. It produced a bit of scaling above the gland. Packing area is probably pitted but they only weep. Another job to pull out this winter. Thank God for ZERO HAHAHA !!! ws

 

[yachtsmanbill]

Bill,



You lost me on "clock/barometer work". We're going south on the boat to Sarasota and the Keys this winter.

I was eluding to the fact that you may be wintering up here... I need a mainspring in my Chelsea on the sub and a tune up on the Bostons (clock and barometer) on the Roamer.
Took the subs clock to Chicago clock on Ogden avenue last year and of course the $50 spring job was $400 because the jeweled movement needs all new stones etc etc etc... ws

 

[yachtsmanbill]

Re: Hey Willy

LOOK CLOSER... thats some rust from wet packing while in storage against monel shafting. It produced a bit of scaling above the gland. Packing area is probably pitted but they only weep. Another job to pull out this winter. Thank God for ZERO HAHAHA !!! ws

Heres some fabricatin' stuff.. plus a run through the
Portes de's Mortes passage between door county and Washington Island.
Fond memories!! ws

 

[MikeP]

According to Hatteras, where I asked via email and received a response re toe on my 53MY, their tech responded that the toe is 1 to 1.5 inches and can be either toe in or toe out. I set mine up with the aft ends of the rudders 1.25" wider than the fronts.

 

[Avenger]

I can't say with certainty that my setup is the same as yours, but my rudders and keyways are in alignment. The problem comes from the rudder arms. The keyways in mine are offset about 7° which means that if the tie-rod ends are the same width as the rudder posts you are toed by almost 5 in, either in or out depending on which way the arms are installed.

 

[Nonchalant1]

According to Hatteras, where I asked via email and received a response re toe on my 53MY, their tech responded that the toe is 1 to 1.5 inches and can be either toe in or toe out. I set mine up with the aft ends of the rudders 1.25" wider than the fronts.

Mike,

Thanks - great answer.

Doug

 

[Nonchalant1]

I can't say with certainty that my setup is the same as yours, but my rudders and keyways are in alignment. The problem comes from the rudder arms. The keyways in mine are offset about 7° which means that if the tie-rod ends are the same width as the rudder posts you are toed by almost 5 in, either in or out depending on which way the arms are installed.

Scrod,

Thanks much. Now I know with this and Mike's answer that I got'ta measure at the rudders and adjust inside the Lazarette. Maybe a little scuba project for when we get to Sarasota or the Keys next winter if I don't haul her.

Doug

 

[mike]

FWIW, just checked both of my rudders on our 53MY, they are out of the boat right now, and the key ways (2 ea/rudder) are in fwd and aft alignment with the blade.

 

[Nonchalant1]

Mike,

Thanks. But now I figure the even if I know they're aligned, it would be hard to estimate when there is 1 to 1.5 inches of toe in. I think I should go with measuring them with a steel tape underwater with my scub a gear when we get to the keys, or waiting for a haul.

Doug

 

[yachtsmanbill]

Hey Doug.... FWI, while in Mobile I dropped my tape measure from a peice of conduit off of my radar arch to measure the air draft and two days later the steel spring in my brand new 25 ft stanley tape measure broke. Make sure ya rinse your steel tape measure REAL GOOD, especially if in salt water! ws

 

[Trojan]

Toe in or out is always measured on the front leading edge of the rudders. Shaft off set front to rear is different on most boats rudders. Measuring from the rear trailing edge could really mess you up. Depending on the shaft offset and width of the rudder. I don't think I have ever have seen a rudder that the rudder shaft was centered in the center of the blade.

BILL.

 

[Avenger]

1.) As Yachtsmanbill said, if you're doing this in-water use a throwaway tape measure unless you're going to drop it in a bucket of WD-40

2.) Trojan. What on earth are you talking about? Toe is the differential between the front edge and the rear edge. Do you have another way of measuring it?

 

[Trojan]

1.) As Yachtsmanbill said, if you're doing this in-water use a throwaway tape measure unless you're going to drop it in a bucket of WD-40

2.) Trojan. What on earth are you talking about? Toe is the differential between the front edge and the rear edge. Do you have another way of measuring it?

What the hell are you trying to say? What are you using for a reference to straight ahead? Where do You start from. I don't think that you have set any rudder toe ins. Tell us how you set toe.

Toe is set by measuring the distance between the two rudder post shaft CENTERS as reference. Then subtracting 1 to 1.5 inches from that dimension. You then use that dimension to set the toe in between the two rudder leading edges. Not each rudder. How hard is that. Why would you care what the rear edge is doing. Sure you could do the math, But I dought it would change things much. The center pivot determines the distance to use for toe in or out. Your only stating what toe is, not how to get it. It's not measured like a car. Toe in, is the preferred toe. There is less drag under way and the boat turns smoother. Toe out can result in over steering and sudden change in turning speeds. The bigger the rudder the less toe is required, but I have never seen it be less than 1 inch. Then maybe the instruction book from a previous boat is wrong. Just like the shaft nut assembly.

Bill

 

[Nonchalant1]

What the hell are you trying to say? What are you using for a reference to straight ahead? Where do You start from. I don't think that you have set any rudder toe ins. Tell us how you set toe.

Toe is set by measuring the distance between the two rudder post shaft CENTERS as reference. Then subtracting 1 to 1.5 inches from that dimension. You then use that dimension to set the toe in between the two rudder leading edges. Not each rudder. How hard is that. Why would you care what the rear edge is doing. Sure you could do the math, But I dought it would change things much. The center pivot determines the distance to use for toe in or out. Your only stating what toe is, not how to get it. It's not measured like a car. Toe in, is the preferred toe. There is less drag under way and the boat turns smoother. Toe out can result in over steering and sudden change in turning speeds. The bigger the rudder the less toe is required, but I have never seen it be less than 1 inch. Then maybe the instruction book from a previous boat is wrong. Just like the shaft nut assembly.

Bill

Trojan,

So I should use 1 inch toe in which means the leading edge of the rudders should be 1 inch closer together than the center of the shafts? I don't plan on taking a tape measure underwater, just take a straight length of aluminum rod, angle iron, or some such down to mark off the center distance at the shafts, take it up and subtract 1.25 inches from that and take it back down and that should be the distance between the two forward edges of the rudders. Seems simple enough. That will leave the aft edges of the rudders about 2 to 3 inches farther apart than the forward edges, right?

Thanks,

Doug

 

[Avenger]

What the hell are you trying to say? What are you using for a reference to straight ahead? Where do You start from. I don't think that you have set any rudder toe ins. Tell us how you set toe.

It's my understanding that you measure toe by stretching a tape measure across the boat between the trailing edges of the rudders, then taking that dimension and subtracting the dimension you get when you measure between the leading edges (for toe-in).

The only reason for toe is to keep slight pressure on the rudders so they can't jiggle around. Any more than necessary for that just creates drag.

For my 36C Hatteras told me 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch. But it may be different for different boats.

And yes, I most certainly have set my rudder toe-ins. Ironically, it was previously set up the way you describe. Not by Hatteras, but by a yard re-assembling the arms incorrectly after a repair. That one inch of toe as you describe it led to a total of five inches of toe between the fronts and the rears. Since I set it up my way my boat is seven knots faster than it was before. I'll keep doing it my way.

 

[MikeP]

As noted, the point of toe in/out is to keep pressure on the rudders and avoid fluttering. I can't see how it makes any difference at all whether the toe is IN or OUT as long as it is within the spec for the dimension.