Why do We Pledge Allegiance to a Flag, Instead of . . .?

[UNIQUE_NAME]

The Devil is in the Details.

We are supposed to have a limited government which includes a limited relationship between religion and government. Each protected from the other. The taliban and such theocracies are not limited, do not allow the free exercise of religion and are inevitably corrupted by their power.

The Constitution seems pretty clear:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; . . .

There is nothing I can find in the Constitution stating there must be a separation of church and state.
Unfortunately, perhaps in the name of creating a separation, could it be said, we have allowed the establishment of a state religion . . .

Secularism and "science" as the state religion, theories as dogma, and contrary thoughts as heresy?

Regards,
Vincent

just as the constitution/bill of rights lacks the words "separation of church and state" it also lacks any words or inference to a "limited relationship between government and religion". it almost seems togo out of its way to avoid using religion in a sentence. considering the framers
were more god fearing/believing than most people today, i find it very interesting.
but then again, while there were competing ideologies of the time they weren't dealing
with the extremists we have today.

the constitution nor the bill of rights, as they are worded, would prohibit the taliban from practicing their extremest policies in the usa today.
what would knock it down would be their crossing of civil/state/federal laws.


as one of my favorite movies said "democracy isn't easy, you've got to want it."
then there is a line about listening to a man scream at the top of his lungs what you would spend a lifetime fighting.

respectfully,

jim

 

[garyd]

Funny how our money ended up with "IN GOD WE TRUST". Once again meaning the Trinity.

The right to decide for yourself "FREEWILL" is important. Each individual decides for himself. I do not believe anyone that wants to take us back to our forefathers image of America is a crazy you have believe this or else kinda person.

On the other hand I do not believe our forefathers would of granted a permit to a Muslim church at ground zero. They probably would of said "HELL NO"

 

[lumina]

Hi All,

In my opinion and from what I have read and how I was educated in government and religion there no mention of a “trinity” in the constitution, bill of rights or the pledge. Nor is there any mention of Christian. It simply states one "nation under god" “freedom of religion” etc

I agree with a prior post that said "there is a reason why our forefathers set things up the way they did, and that was for the good of everyone" but I believe that means just what it says ie every American, every ethnicity, every religion etc. That was the forefathers genius, to construct living documents that encompass our integrated nation then and now.

Everything the forefathers built was specific to the generic American and our fundamental values and rights.

I have to disagree with the statement from the same post that said "We are and always have been a proud Christian nation". I'd say we are and always have been a proud nation under god which I believe was the forefathers intention, to incorporate all religions and in no way brand our nation as one.

I hope I live to see a time when all men can hold true to their religious beliefs but can make the intellectual and spiritual stretch to realize we are all, (Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist on infinatum) loving the same one God.

 

[garyd]

Gene, the only problem with what you said is you cannot change history as you are trying to do. The fact is you can do the research yourself. We were set up as a Christian nation with prayers during the initial meetings that ended kinda like this. " And to the Father and the Son and to the Holy Ghost".

You can try to change history but you can't. Look it up yourself!

Al Gore tried to change History with Him saying he invented the internet lol. Bill Clinton tried to change history " I did not have sexual relations with that woman"

The facts are there for you to discover. We were founded and set up as a Christian Nation period. Argue and try to change this all you want but da facts are da facts brother.

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

Gene, the only problem with what you said is you cannot change history as you are trying to do. The fact is you can do the research yourself. We were set up as a Christian nation with prayers during the initial meetings that ended kinda like this. " And to the Father and the Son and to the Holy Ghost".

You can try to change history but you can't. Look it up yourself!

Al Gore tried to change History with Him saying he invented the internet lol. Bill Clinton tried to change history " I did not have sexual relations with that woman"

The facts are there for you to discover. We were founded and set up as a Christian Nation period. Argue and try to change this all you want but da facts are da facts brother.

gary,

i dont feel anyone here is trying to change history. the framers were christian and may very well have ended every meeting with "And to the Father and the Son and to the Holy Ghost". but what they didnt do was put that on paper and make us a christian nation. the few references to God in the constitution and bill of rights were written as such so the reader would have the freedom to interpret who their God was. this is exactly what you are doing, what i and every other person who reads them does. that was the spirit of the first amendment.

as far as building a mosque as ground zero, im sure the forefathers would have objected
just as strenuous as NY did. but they, like the current guardians would have had no legal leg
to stand on to stop them. morally if it belongs there is a whole 'nother story and attests to the mindset of the mosque leaders. takeaway from that statement what you will.

respectfully,

jim

 

[Vincentc]

I decided to look up the origin of the Pledge:

According to Wikipedia:

The Pledge of Allegiance of the United States ..., originally composed by Francis Bellamy in 1892 and formally adopted by Congress as the pledge in 1942. The Pledge has been modified four times since its composition, with the most recent change adding the words "under God" in 1954

Francis Bellamy (1855 – 1931) … was an American Baptist minister and Christian Socialist who wrote the original Pledge of Allegiance in 1892. It was published in the Youth's Companion, which was a nationally circulated magazine for adolescents, and by 1892 was the largest publication … in the United States, …circulation … 500,000. …

In 1891, … the Youth's Companion, hired Bellamy to work … in the magazine's premium department. In 1888, the Youth's Companion had begun a campaign to sell American flags to public schools as a premium to solicit subscriptions. ... By 1892, the magazine had sold American flags to approximately 26,000 schools. …
A flag salute was to be part of the official program for the Columbus Day celebration to be held in schools all over America.
The Pledge was published in the September 8, 1892, issue of the magazine, and immediately put to use in the campaign. Bellamy … received the official blessing of educators, Bellamy's committee …. (designed) an official program for schools to follow on the day of national celebration. He structured the program around a flag raising ceremony and his pledge.
His original Pledge read as follows:
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to* the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"
The recital was accompanied with a salute to the flag known as the Bellamy salute, … During World War II, the salute was replaced with a hand-over-heart gesture because the original form involved stretching the arm out towards the flag in a manner that resembled the later Nazi salute.
In 1954, in response to the perceived threat of secular Communism, President Eisenhower encouraged Congress to add the words "under God," creating the 31-word pledge that is recited today.
Bellamy was a Christian Socialist[2] who "championed 'the rights of working people and the equal distribution of economic resources, which he believed was inherent in the teachings of Jesus.'"[5] but he was forced to leave his Boston church the previous year because of the socialist bent of his sermons.
Bellamy's views on immigration and universal suffrage were somewhat less egalitarian. He wrote that "[a] democracy like ours cannot afford to throw itself open to the world where every man is a lawmaker, every dull-witted or fanatical immigrant admitted to our citizenship is a bane to the commonwealth; where all classes of society merge insensibly into one another.”

Regards,
Vincent

 

[garyd]

In 1892 The supreme court ruled (in case there was any confusion) that The United States Of America is a Christian Nation. Read more and make sure you read the last paragraph.

American Jewish Leaders Agree with History

Jewish leaders, although firmly committed to their own faith, understand that by defending Christianity they are defending what has provided them their own religious liberty in America. For example, Jeff Jacoby, a Jewish columnist at the Boston Globe explains:

This is a Christian country – it was founded by Christians and built on broad Christian principles. Threatening? Far from it. It is in precisely this Christian country that Jews have known the most peaceful, prosperous, and successful existence in their long history.
Aaron Zelman (a Jewish author and head of a civil rights organization) similarly declares:

[C]hristian America is the best home our people have found in 2,000 years. . . . [T]his remains the most tolerant, prosperous, and safest home we could be blessed with.
Dennis Prager, a Jewish national columnist and popular talkshow host, warns:

If America abandons its Judeo-Christian values basis and the central role of the Jewish and Christian Bibles (its Founders’ guiding text), we are all in big trouble, including, most especially, America’s non-Christians. Just ask the Jews of secular Europe.
Prager further explained:


I believe that it is good that America is a Christian nation. . . . I have had the privilege of speaking in nearly every Jewish community in America over the last 30 years, and I have frequently argued in favor of this view. Recently, I spoke to the Jewish community of a small North Carolina city. When some in the audience mentioned their fear of rising religiosity among Christians, I asked these audience-members if they loved living in their city. All of them said they did. Is it a coincidence, I then asked, that the city you so love (for its wonderful people, its safety for your children, its fine schools, and its values that enable you to raise your children with confidence) is a highly Christian city? Too many Americans do not appreciate the connection between American greatness and American Christianity.
Don Feder, a Jewish columnist and long time writer for the Boston Herald, similarly acknowledges:


Clearly this nation was established by Christians. . . . As a Jew, I’m entirely comfortable with the concept of the Christian America. The choice isn’t Christian America or nothing, but Christian America or a neo-pagan, hedonistic, rights-without-responsibilities, anti-family, culture-of-death America. As an American Jew. . . . feel very much at home here.
In fact, Feder calls on Jews to defend the truth that America is a Christian Nation:

Jews – as Jews – must oppose revisionist efforts to deny our nation’s Christian heritage, must stand against the drive to decouple our laws from Judeo-Christian ethics, and must counter attacks on public expressions of the religion of most Americans – Christianity. Jews are safer in a Christian America than in a secular America.
Michael Medved, a Jewish national talkshow host and columnist, agrees that America is indeed a Christian nation:


The framers may not have mentioned Christianity in the Constitution but they clearly intended that charter of liberty to govern a society of fervent faith, freely encouraged by government for the benefit of all. Their noble and unprecedented experiment never involved a religion-free or faithless state but did indeed presuppose America’s unequivocal identity as a Christian nation. 71
Burt Prelutsky, a Jewish columnist for the Los Angeles Times (and a freelance writer for the New York Times, Washington Times, Sports Illustrated, and other national publications) and a patriotic Jewish American, gladly embraces America as a Christian nation and even resents the secularist post-modern attack on national Christian celebrations such as Christmas:

I never thought I’d live to see the day that Christmas would become a dirty word. . . .How is it, one well might ask, that in a Christian nation this is happening? And in case you find that designation objectionable, would you deny that India is a Hindu country, that Turkey is Muslim, that Poland is Catholic? That doesn’t mean those nations are theocracies. But when the overwhelming majority of a country’s population is of one religion, and most Americans happen to be one sort of Christian or another, only a darn fool would deny the obvious. . . . This is a Christian nation, my friends. And all of us are fortunate it is one, and that so many millions of Americans have seen fit to live up to the highest precepts of their religion. It should never be forgotten that, in the main, it was Christian soldiers who fought and died to defeat Nazi Germany and who liberated the concentration camps. Speaking as a member of a minority group – and one of the smaller ones at that – I say it behooves those of us who don’t accept Jesus Christ as our savior to show some gratitude to those who do, and to start respecting the values and traditions of the overwhelming majority of our fellow citizens, just as we keep insisting that they respect ours. Merry Christmas, my friends.
Orthodox Rabbi Daniel Lapin of the Jewish Policy Center unequivocally declares


understand that I live . . . in a Christian nation, albeit one where I can follow my faith as long as it doesn’t conflict with the nation’s principles. The same option is open to all Americans and will be available only as long as this nation’s Christian roots are acknowledged and honored.
In fact, with foreboding he warns:

Without a vibrant and vital Christianity, America is doomed, and without America, the west is doomed. Which is why I, an Orthodox Jewish rabbi, devoted to Jewish survival, the Torah, and Israel am so terrified of American Christianity caving in. God help Jews if America ever becomes a post-Christian society! Just think of Europe!

— — — ◊ ◊ ◊ — — —

President Obama’s declaration that Americans “do not consider ourselves a Christian nation” is a repudiation of the declarations of the national leaders before him and is an unabashed attempt at historical revisionism. Of such efforts, Chief Justice William Rehnquist wisely observed, “no amount of repetition of historical errors . . . can make the errors true.”

 

[Boatsb]

Gary D shouldn't you be in church today or do you not practice what you want to preach to the rest of us.

 

[lumina]

Hi All,

Gary, respectfully, I am not trying to change history, whereas many could make the case that you are trying to bolster your interpretation of history to substantiate your beliefs through projection of antidotal circumstantial evidence.

Of course the framers were Christian but they were also people fleeing horrible religious persecution. I find it hard to believe that they would impose a single religion upon their fledgling nation, however, I can completely believe they would word these documents to stress the importance of being a nation under god, inclusive.

The bottom line in my book is that the framers, with all of their blessings and amen’s (no disrespect) constructed powerful documents to establish our nation as one of god, a faithful nation, with liberty and justice for all.

If either document the constitution, the bill of rights (and others) specifically included language that referenced the trinity, Christian, Jesus etc that would cement their intention and I would acquiesce, but the actual physical documents we can hold in our hands today are completely devoid of those words intentionally. The framers labored tirelessly to create a framework that was inclusive to all, relative to not only to religion but also human rights etc.

If you want to look at whether we are a Christian nation based upon the percentage of the population then the majority of the population is Christian, but I think the framers would be aghast that we are trying to put any one religion above another.

I’d prefer to quantify how many Americans believe in god and determine whether we are a nation under god from that perspective.