Why do I need a generator?

[mstailey]

Well, the @$#%!* generator is acting up again. I posted a while back on voltage fluctuation and thought I figured out the problem. It turns out the problem is back and I'm being told the control box with lots of wiz-bang electrical goodies needs replacing. If they can find one for a MDJE series it's going to be costly. What really bugs me is I've sunk about 5k into the unit since this past April. Oh well, dummy me.

So, to my point -
After a summer of operating the boat the only time I use the gen is when underway to keep the ice maker and fridge operational, a few times to run the microwave and coffee maker when on the hook and once or twice to kick on the tv and watch a dvd. I have not felt the need to run the A/C although I would kick it on for a bit to make sure the gen operated at better than 50% load but again I could have done without the A/C. It's Michigan, after all.

So after following some posts here, talking with the Cummins guys and some Internet research I've determined to replace the gen with =>7.5kw it's going to be in the range of 13 to 15 boat bucks.

Driving into work today the Inverter thought poped into my head. So far I've determined the following:
PROS:
* Silent operation
* No need to worry about keeping a load on an engine
* Automatic transfer from shore power to inverter
* Battery replacement -vs- generator breakdown costs much less
* Maintenance of Inverter / batteries less demanding than an engine
* Will handle almost all of my 120v demands except A/C & hot water heater
* Based on gen weight & foot print one could have a sizeable battery bank
* No diesel fuel usage
* Built in battery charger
* Can use engine driven alt when underway to keep battery bank charged

CONS:
* Will hurt resale (but this is not a big factor - I'm keeping this boat)
* No A/C or hot water away from shore power
* Loose my source of ac power / battery charger in case main batteries fail
(not such a big deal as I do not travel more than 10 miles off shore)

After thinking about the pros / cons of an inverter and given the fact based on my statement above, I just can't help wonder where is the value for the $$$ for either fixing this old generator or relacing with a new unit.

Your thoughts?

 

[MikeP]

Having recently installed an Outback 3232 inverter and loving it, I'd suggest the inverter is an excellent idea. HOWEVER, when anchored out, this means that everytime you need to charge the batts, you need to run the mains. Also, you could never use the stove or water heater. This is too much like camping for me but that's just a matter of opinion.

I find the inverter to be great because it means the genny only needs to run a couple hours a day instead of 24 which saves fuel, wear, and eliminates the noise/vibration for most of the time.

So I guess what I'm actually saying is you should get an inverter AND fix/replace the genny! Guess that's not much help...

 

[egaito]

After thinking about the pros / cons of an inverter and given the fact based on my statement above, I just can't help wonder where is the value for the $$$ for either fixing this old generator or relacing with a new unit.

Your thoughts?

My first thought is that with an 7kw Phasor (1800 rpm) list priced at $9100 and an 8.5kw, list priced at $9930, I'd get competitive pricing...yes, there's installation to consider, but $5k? When I called to inquire for a boat we were looking at that needed one, they were willing to discount as well.

2nd thought is not to under-rate the value at resale. While you plan to keep the boat, plans can easily go awry. Dealing with customers on new and brokerage boats, I've noticed that folks eliminate potential boats from theiri list for the smallest of reasons or oddities....."this one doesn't have a transom shower"...because even if the boat is priced right, they don't want the hassle of "fixing" an issue. A genset is a big part of a power boat's systems. Without a genset, or a non-working one, the boat isn't capable of it's "intended use" in the eyes of a potential buyer. Yea, I know, you're not going to sell, so all of this isn't terribly applicable, or important to you.

From the inverter side, gensets recharge your batteries a lot more economically than running your mains to do so. While you're heating up the hot water to do dishes or take a shower, or to cool off the cabin as evening sets in, you're also topping off your batteries for a worry free night of refridgeration and ice for cocktails!

I've always seen inverter systems as complementary systems of high value, and am planning to install one for the very same reasons you are. I love the quite, and only need the TV on occasion for my daughter, the ice maker (fridge is actually already dual volt), and the occasional 110v lighting.

BTW, I don't know if you have a hard top of any type, but I've been thinking of popping a couple of PV panels up there to give me even more run time without the genny when I get the inverter in.....

 

[Karl]

I have the same issue with a generator as you do, but I also have a smaller boat. My boat does have the original diesel gen that was rebuilt by the previous owner and runs fine, but if it were to go, I would not replace it because I do not really have a great use for it. In my view, the problem to spending $XK for a new one is that gens need to be used, and if not exercised regularly, they will decay and become future problems.

Since you say you don't have a great need for a gen, I would close the gen seacock, leave the old gen in place and install that inverter. if you do decide to sell the boat, discount the price by the cost of a gen and tell the buyers of their advantage to using the discounted $ to installing a brand new, reliable gen, rather than one that was new at one time and has been sitting there gaining rust and corrosion. Who knows, the next buyers may not even care and may think the inverter is a great idea. My opinion only.

 

[MikeP]

I feel compelled to add that if I was looking at boats and a broker or whoever told me he had a boat for me to look at that had a non-working generator, I wouldn't look at it regardless of the price break. The fact that a vital piece of machinery wasn't functioning would signify to me (perhaps wrongly) that there are likely other vital parts that weren't cared for/repaired as needed.

So I'd recommend that the genny eventually get repaired/replaced regardless of the current (no pun intended) need.

 

[Will]

Mike,

We have a 43' DC like yours. The generator was inoperative when we bought the boat which was included in the price negotiations. No big deal. We ran the boat for about a year and a half using the Freedom 30 inverter. With 4 8D, 12 volt batteries, it easily handled the refrigerator, microwave, morning coffee and TV for weekend anchor outs without charging the batteries. The usual 12 volt hotel equipment remained on line as well. However, we are in the San Francisco Bay area where the climate is mild. We installed a generator about 6 months ago so that we could stay out for more than a few days and enjoy the comfort of heat in the winter, hot showers and more than micro-waved food.

I'd avoid having to run one of the main engines just to charge batteries. It takes a number of hours with the engine never reaching operating temperature.

I appreciate your dilemma. Good luck.

Will

 

[Genesis]

I would look CLOSELY at the Kohler if you're being nailed for that kind of money. A few years ago I bought an 8EOZ for under $8,000 - INSTALLED. The Genset itself was under $7k if I remember correctly.

I would absolutely replace it - those Onans are a PITA and Cummins seems to have zero desire to actually support them.

 

[Pascal]

the freedom 30 i installed almost 3 years ago is the best $ i spent on the boat. it's already paid for in fuel savings, and so are the 8 golf cart batteries...

do you need a genset ? it depends on where you are and your cruising style.

IF you are in a climate where A/C is rarely needed,
IF you rarely spend more than one night away from a dock,
IF when you are away from the dock for more than a night you cruise for 3 or 4 hours a day and can add a large alternator,

then you dont' really need a genset.

the problem woudl be if you go anchor out somewhere in the same spot for 3 or 4 days... 8 GC Batt. gives us about 24 hours autonomy...

I think a water heater could be run on a large inverter but that will be a large draw.... maybe if you just run it once a day it woudl work out or you could convert to a heating from the mains ?

The stove is an issue, althought a lot can be done with a microwave and a counter top gridle. I have one taht i use in the morning, off the inverter, i can do pancakes, eggs, potatoes and bacon...

as to resale value, i think it coudl be an issue but you can be upfront about it when selling and explain that you didn't need the genset because your are closet rag boter at heart or replace the genset before selling. this way the buyer either choose his genset or gets a brand new one...

 

[Jaxfishgyd]

I know in my case, we run our genset most of the time when we are away from the dock. But we usually have 1-3 grandkids onboard, it gets WAY TOO HOT here in the summertime not to use A/C, Hot water for showers (again due to grandkids and the admiral).
In the wintertime we do not run the genset if we anchor up and it's time to go to sleep.
At the moment I have replaced 2 of the 8D batteries with group 24's (3 per box) and have been very happy with the setup. That still leaves the rear battery boxes on both sides empty for when I do install the inverter.

 

[Freestyle]

With the same boat and climate I faced the same decision 2 years ago. I bought an Onan 9kw at the Miami Boat show that cost $11k installed and everything.

I love the inverter but it is a24 hour deal. It also is useless for hot water and makes the microwave run funny. My wife plugged in a frying pan once and smoked a cable on the battery bank.

Without A/C I would be hard pressed to get my family to go on lengthy cruises. Anchoring out in the summer would be ridiculous.

If you are going to keep the boat for any length of time buy the generator and enjoy it.

Bruce
Freestyle
1976 43 DCMY

 

[MikeP]

Re the micor running funny - a sine wave inverter is required to ensure proper operation of various devices; they deliver power identical to that supplied by the electrical company on their best day!

 

[mstailey]

Ok folks, I hear you loud and clear. All great opinions (as I suspected it would be). Actually the one comment that pushed me over the fence to do a generator was from MikeP:

I feel compelled to add that if I was looking at boats and a broker or whoever told me he had a boat for me to look at that had a non-working generator, I wouldn't look at it regardless of the price break. The fact that a vital piece of machinery wasn't functioning would signify to me (perhaps wrongly) that there are likely other vital parts that weren't cared for/repaired as needed.
So I'd recommend that the genny eventually get repaired/replaced regardless of the current (no pun intended) need.

That statement in of its self was the deciding factor to replace the gen. It would always bug me that I took away from the boat rather than care for or enhance it.

BTW: Pascal,
I'd rather eat raw horseshoe crabs that have been washed up on the south side of Long Island for 3 days as to admit I'm a closet rag bagger

Thank you everyone.

 

[67hat34c]

remember the used gen is still worth someting, put it on e bay

 

[jim rosenthal]

You can certainly do without a generator. However, it WILL hurt the boats value at resale, especially if you remove the existing genset and put something else in its place- like batteries for an inverter.

In Michigan, though, you probably don't use your AC a lot. You can run a line from the cooling (freshwater) side of one of the main engines to the heat exchanger loop inside the water heater, and you will have HOT water, trust me. If you get a fairly large water heater, it will stay hot for a while, so you won't need AC for that.

You may be overestimating the genset size you need. My 6kw Northern Lights will run everything on the boat at one time, which means it's probably large enough for a 43DC. How often do you run all the loads at once? I have done it one time- to see whether it could.

If you shop carefully, especially with boat show prices, you may be able to get both- a reasonable-size genset, and an inverter. If I could have only one, it would be the genset. Also look in Boats&Harbors, you may find a deal there on a takeout, sometimes they are around. Or an instock sample- that's is how I got my NL, they had it around already and wanted to sell it, it was the end of the season, so I didn't have to pay freight, and it was an out-of-state sale, so no tax. Good luck with all this.

 

[Trojan]

Wait a minute! There are no electrical goodies in the box that control the voltage on your model generator. The voltage is all controlled by the rpm of the generator. Who is zooming Who here. I just had a voltage and rpm problem on my Onan 7.5. As it turned out it was a $18.00 dollar part. Those are good old generators. Don't be in too big of hurry to scrap it. Unless you just want a new generator. If you want give me a call. Maybe I can help you get to the real trouble.


BILL 1-419 466-5284

 

[Avenger]

As stated in an earlier thread, I'm not a "back end" specialist. That would be the generator end to those not in the industry. But I can tell you that RPM has nada to do with voltage if the unit is maintaining frequency. If frequency is fluctuating then you have an engine or governor problem. If frequency is within spec it's an electrical problem.

Bill's right about them being good generators though. Onan probably built millions of them and plenty of them are still making juice.

 

[Pascal]

my microwave works fine on MSW, it makes a different noise and may take just a little longer but it works.

if your wife connected something and smoked the wiring, then you have a problem... it takes 4/0 to hool up the freedom 30 to the battery bank, big cables... but i've pegged the monitor to 300 DC AMPS at time and never fried a cable. maybe someone installed 4 gauge wiring instead of 4/0

even in summertime, on the hook, i no longer run the genset during the day. we're in the saloon, on the aft deck, outside, not down below during the day and i enjoy the silence maybe I'm an closet ragboter I turn it on at sunset and run it all night till 8 or 9 am... in winter, i only run it 3 ot 4 hours at night and just sleep with a fan on. that was until may this year... i like the sound of the water lapping against the hull thru open portholes...

 

[egaito]

i enjoy the silence maybe I'm an closet ragboter I turn it on at sunset and run it all night till 8 or 9 am... in winter, i only run it 3 ot 4 hours at night and just sleep with a fan on. that was until may this year... i like the sound of the water lapping against the hull thru open portholes...

You're not a closet ragbagger! I know, I'm bi-boatal. I hate running the genny 24x7, especially when there's a good breeze! The way I figure it, your chances of getting woken up in the middle of the night to change a filter goes way down if you shut the beast off before bedtime.

Except for wearing socks, this is one of my favorite times of year because we'll head out this Friday night not worrying about the 3/4 fried water pump on the genny to keep things cool.

 

[(Nobody You Know)]

Mike,

all foregoing responses withstanding, as I recall your previous thread regarding genset problems something tells me you need to look into finding a better mechanic. These things though however tricky, are not that complicated.

Hate to see you give up the genset for something that, with a little luck, could possibly be simple to isolate and fix, let alone have to go out and buy a new one.

Capt'n Bill

 

[TedZ]

There are better cheaper generators.

If you take the gen end off, two people can get the two pieces out easily.

New generators are light, quiet, run trouble free and it is an easy install.

MHO

Ted