UPDATE: Boat Crash in MI

[mstailey]

Here is an update to the news item I posted earlier in the week.

http://www.samsmarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4031

I'm posting this because:
1) I originally put it out there and felt it was my obligation to find more info and update all of you and
2) I feel it does pertain to us as a reminder of when it all goes wrong

No doubt this will spark a few mentions from most of us as this type of thing hits us all hard and while any and all opinions posted here are always welcomed - Please, I do not want to be the cause of blog fights.

So that said, here's what I think -
Both operators were ABSOLUTELY in the WRONG. As we do not know for sure if alcohol was involved or what either operator knew / did not know about rules of the waterway from the story at this point, 1 item is crystal clear in my mind.

Damage to the 1 boat and the root cause of the crash indicates both boats were traveling to fast for conditions

As stated above, I will say again the story did not indicate what the operators knew about the rules of the waterways so could have licensing / classes have overted this tragedy? IMHO it would have not as we are reminded of what happens when you run fast in the dark from the sinking post earlier in the week.

You could even spin it as they knew the rules but speculate 1 or both had been drinking. I can even think of other ways to spin this one, so on an so forth.

BUT anyway you spin it or what ever comes out of the investegation -

Both operators were at fault. Period.

It's a shame.






------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Greenwood / The Detroit News
The St. Clair County Sheriff's Department is investigating a crash between two boats on Lake St. Clair late Saturday that claimed the life of a 14-year-old Harrison Township boy. The body of Tyler Doughty, a student at L'Anse Creuse Middle School, was recovered at about 8:45 a.m. Sunday in about 10 feet of water, according to Lt. William Krul, of the sheriff department's marine patrol division.
"The two boats crashed together at about 11:30 p.m. Saturday," Krul said.
"The victim was sleeping in the forward berth in the boat which his father was piloting. They were on their way into Lucas Marina, in Bouvier Bay, and then home to Harrison Township.
"Another boat, occupied by two 28-year-old men (one from Brighton, the other from Fowlerville), were also headed into Bouvier Bay. They saw each other at the last moment and tried to avoid each other, but unfortunately they turned into each other."
According to Krul, the force of the crash was so great that the forward section of the boat in which Doughty was riding was ripped from the vessel. The victim's father dove into the water with a flashlight looking for his son, but was unable to locate him.
"We responded to the crash, along with the U.S. Coast Guard. We dived in the area until about 2 a.m. but were unable to locate the unfortunate boy until Sunday morning. The passengers in the other boat were treated and released from River District Hospital, in St. Clair. The investigation is still underway and we are trying to determine if drugs or alcohol were a factor in the crash."
Although there were many life jackets on the boat, the victim wasn't wearing one because he was sleeping below deck and it was thought to be unnecessary. A salvage crew was able to recover the boat in which Doughty was riding.

 

[Passages]

I don't believe anything more needs to be said. As the father of a 13 year old son, it too tragic, hits too close to home, too depressing.

Be careful out there...please...

 

[Genesis]

Yep.

Two guys, both running at high speed in the dark.

I don't do it and this is a graphic example of why.

 

[Freebird]

I don't believe anything more needs to be said. As the father of a 13 year old son, it too tragic, hits too close to home, too depressing.

Be careful out there...please...

AMEN! Don't want to go down that road again!

 

[(Nobody You Know)]

"Both operators were ABSOLUTELY in the WRONG. As we do not know for sure..."

It remains a horrible tradgedy for anyone to be killed while boating. However…

1. You do NOT know if one or both boats were traveling at a rate of speed that was too fast for conditions. Rule 5.
2. You do NOT know if both operators were intoxicated nor for that matter if in fact any one operator was intoxicated. Local law.
3. You do NOT know if any one of the operators maintained a proper look out. Rule 6.
4. You do NOT know if any one of the boats involved failed to display proper running lights. Rule 23.
5. You do NOT know if any one of the boats involved had the other on her port side and made proper effort to keep out of the way (and if the circumstances of the case admit, avoided crossing ahead of the other vessel). Rule 15.
6. Yes, all vessels “may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger” and as the sheriff said, we do know this: “They saw each other at the last moment and tried to avoid each other”. Rule 8.

Can both operators be at fault? Possible. (No spin, just the facts and the law.)
Could one of the operators be in violation of one or all of the first four rules above? Possible.
Could one of the operators be in compliance with all of the Navigation Rules that apply? It is possible!

I’m no maritime lawyer, and often, you cannot predict which way a judge or jury will rule on a certain situation. And I don’t subscribe to the notion that in the event of an accident at sea both (or all) parties involved are at fault. Before you go passing judgement on both parties it is entirely possible that one of those boaters could have caused this whole thing, while the other tried desperately to avoid it. We don’t know!

On another note…
Would mandatory boater licensing reduce the number of on water fatalaties? Damn right.
The state of Alabama reports that fatalities dropped by almost 50% the first year the Act went into effect (1999) and have remained in the range of 12 to 22 from a high of 32 before the mandatory licensing. These results are in spite of annual increases in boater participation. (per Lt. Erica Shipman Alabama Marine Police, Dept. of Conservation and Natural Resurces - erica.shipman@dcnr.alabama.gov).

And speakin of licensing, this is not to say that because one is a licensed captain he or she exercises prudence when operating a boat. Are some boaters bad boaters? Yes. Are all boaters bad boaters? Of course not. Are some licensed captains jerks? Yes. Are all licensed captains jerks? Of course not. I myself had had my share of close calls and having been victimized by inconsiderant (and uneducated) jerks on the water. And I have made my share of mistakes likewise – fortunately nothing serious. The colossal crown jewel of assholes in Carolina Beach is a charter captain who operates a “Large” sports fisherman (not a head boat) – if you locals get my drift. And if you have done any considerable boating at all you know what it’s like to have a screaming 40’ or 50+ footer blow by you at night, or worse, hear it but never see it in a fog so thick you can’t see your own bow pulpit (like the fogs you have on Long island Sound or the Chocktawachee in Florida).

Do some bad boaters who take state mandatory boating courses improve on their boating? Fortunately the answer is yes. And while we can allow that only a mature person with a passion for safe boating will seek to imporve his or her boating skills through education, some boaters – with no desire for self improvenent – will benefit from same though however force fed (thank gawd). The facts point to it (at least in Alabama anyway).

Don’t get me wrong on this. As a Libertarian I am the last person to want to see government erode one more freedom. But we live in an ever more complicated world. I refer back to my statement in the thread “Stupid, Stupid, Stupid”. Do away with drivers licenses and see what happens to the fatality rate on our streets and highways. This Sunday I will boarding the big bird for the UK and I cannot even carry onboard hand lotion (even though it’s already been proven that all you have to do is simply put it in your pocket and those security morons – whom I entrust with mine and my wife’s security – will never catch it). But if this is what it take to make flying safe FINE WITH ME. In this day and age we have far more boats with greater power and more displacement plowing the same narrow channels, water ways and inlets than we have ever dreamed.

Children (and grown ups) do not have to die as a result of adult carelessness. The next time you are on the water and some jerk gives you no alternative but to take signficant action to avoid collision – which I suspect that most everyone reading this thread would do – Think about who really caused that close call.

Capt’n Bill

“Rule # 1: Don’t do anything stupid”. Lt. Dan, Forest Gump (speaking of Alabama)

 

[Genesis]

Just a couple of things here....

1. On 9/11, not one prohibited item was brought on board an aircraft. Boxcutters were not against the rules. There was no security violation.

2. Today, 90% of all cargo carried in Jets is unscreened. Half the cargo hold on an average passenger flight is full of commercial cargo (e.g. shipments of various kinds)

3. We know that when a collision occurs on the water that both captains are almost always responsible to some degree. This is because the COLREGs are intentionally designed this way. So are the Inland Rules. By definition if you are hit you did not maintain a proper lookout and/or did not (or could not, due to your speed) take evasive action in time - unless the other vessel intentionally hit you. The rules actually require to you stop if that is necessary.

There is no human endeavor that is free of risk. Your statement that "Children (and grown ups) do not have to die as a result of adult carelessness." is false. Both children and adults always have and always will die (sometimes) due to adult (and childhood) carelessness. It is the very nature of life that we face risks each and every day to our continued existence, and life is, in fact, quite fragile.

I am not willing to sacrifice my liberty for perceived safety. I refuse to fly since 9/11 not because I am afraid of being blown up but because I refuse to tolerate the outrageous intrusions into my liberties - none of which I judge do a damn thing to make me safer - that are demanded of me in order to do so. Instead of flying, I choose to withhold my money from the airlines and all destinations where I would otherwise spend it as my means of economic protest. May the airlines and tourism-driven businesses and local economies where I would otherwise spend my funds all rot in Hades.

This nation was founded on personal responsibility and personal freedom. These freedoms have been perverted beyond all reason. People died all the time during the founding of this nation due to being thrown from a horse, stomped by said horse, or all sort of other maladies inherent in using 1,000 lb beasts as transportation. Now we use 3,000 lb man-made beasts and think that this endeavor should be entirely free of risk.

Hogwash.

Today, my daugher rides said beasts - for pleasure. It is the law that I cannot sue if she is thrown and killed by one. Why? Because the law recognizes that horses are unpredictable creatures and that there are inherent risks in this activity - and that by choosing to participate, you accept those risks. She knows this, I know this, she rides anyway.

How is boating any different? You think that because the wingnut behind the wheel is a homo sapien that somehow invalidates the idea that they may be unpredictable? Balderdash.

If you wish to be free of risk - other than that which is self-imposed - then go move to the top of a mountain, fence your yard, and shoot anyone who comes through. You are then free of risk - except for lightning strikes, attacks by bees and wasps, flood, fire, earthquake and slips in your bathtub. Oops.

By the way, in case you're wondering, over 500,000 people require hospitalization and 20,000 people die from slips and falls every year in North America - many of them in the bathroom.

That ought to put the few who die in boating accidents in the proper perspective - not to mention the insane amount of restrictions we tolerate on our personal freedom in other areas for what are very few deaths caused by these other causes (e.g. aircraft terrorism)

That's my 2 cents worth.... take it for whatever value you find in it.

 

[(Nobody You Know)]

"both captains are almost always responsible to some degree."

On that we may have a little common ground.

Also, if I could drive to England (and at the same time never set foot in Jackson-Hartsfield Airport as well) believe me I would.

Thanks for the response.

Capt'n Bill

 

[Trojan]

I think your ideas have marrette Genesis. But I too think that the safe boating course should be mandatory for all boat operators. Just like the rule that men will never ask for directions. They (operators) will never read the rules for on the water. Myself, wife and 6 children have all taken the course. Through the years I have taken it 4 or 5 times. Each time learning something new. I know it has made my family a lot smarter about boating in general and safe boating. I think they need to standardize on the course. I also think the price they charge is wrong but that is another issue. I know the course works because of the questions the family ask. They know about on board safety, they know about navigation and the rules of the waterway. They are constantly pointing out boaters that are not following the rule including myself. It's not going to change all the boaters attitude. That includes driver licences. Only the ones that want to change will use the knowledge. I think it works and will promote it to everyone.





BILL

 

[Genesis]

Point being Trojan that if the Nav Rules are followed in full by either captain you will not have a collision. They are designed this way on purpose!

Therefore, it only takes one.

What this means is that your risk is personal. You are, quite literally, in control of the destiny of those on board your vessel. You choose to leave the dock, you choose when to return, you choose to run an inlet at night, you choose to operate at high speed in the dark.

I do not want to see mandatory anything in this regard. I do not have a problem with promoting the value of instruction, provided that you are not compelled to participate by force. And all government mandates are inherently enforced at gunpoint - just refuse sometime and see how fast the guns come out.

 

[Trojan]

I agree with you Genesis. But if you don't ever open a book you will never learn the rules. Most of the boaters never open that book on there own. After all it's only a boat. I think the rules today are just fine. They just need to learn them. Even if it's by force. Same as a car.



BILL

 

[Boss Lady]

I am with Genesis, I ride a motorcycle and I have to avoid idiots all the time, it is no different on the boat. I expect the unexpected and avoid problems in the process. I do not want the government doing anything else for me. I bought my own plane after 9/11 because of the stupidity, then a jet. I also found out that plenty of other people wanted the same thing so I bought several and now have an air charter business. The government does most things badly, just look at the US Postal service as just one example. Life is tough it is tougher if you are STUPID! I just wish that we could really let DARWIN do his thing for real and let survival of the fittest begin. The reason we have so many stupid people is that we have made it too easy for them to survive. Look at the boobs down in Louisiana that disobeyed the mandatory evacuation order in the face of a Major Hurricane, and then they blame everyone else for their problems. Personal responsibility does not exist anymore. Responsibility to your neighbor is dead as well. If you take risks there are consequences, like going fast in your boat when you cannot see, like fog or darkness. If you do so, be prepared to take your lumps. There should be severe penalties for some of this stuff and it the penalties should be enforced. People think there are no consequences but there are.

 

[Walter P]

As Forest Gump said "stupid is as stupid does".

I don't believe MOST boaters who break the rules are stupid, I think they are ignorent. Vast difference - ignorent doesn't know but when exposed to the knowledge becomes knowledgeable. Stupid on the other hand may have been exposed to the knowledge on many occasions but is incapable of absorbing it. Mandatory public education won't prevent all accidents on the water but statistics prove that it helps - probably by converting ignorant boaters to more enlightened thereby safer boaters. Not much we can do about the STUPID ones except try to steer clear of them.

Every one of the posts on this thread have some validity. I sort of lean towards Genesis' view with some modification. Big brother is watching all of us and although most of us have nothing to hide, it violates the reason our country was formed. Recently I was told that I can no longer have one of my old Startack cell phones activated when my present one dies because the FCC won't permit it as the old phones don't have a locator chip in them and Big Brother can find me if necessary. Of course the reason given by FCC is that in case of an accident or whatever they can not send help. What a load of BS. Well all I can say is that I'm kind of glad I'm getting kind of old and won't have to watch for too many more years - I do feel sorry for future generations however.

Walt.

 

[(Nobody You Know)]

I bought my own plane after 9/11 because of the stupidity, then a jet. I also found out that plenty of other people wanted the same thing so I bought several and now have an air charter business.

Chris,

so in effect, in the light of protecting our freedom from govenrment intrusion, we can also dispense with mandatory private (air) pilot's licensing?

I don't see how this is altogether much different from boating (the catastrophe of consiquinces withstanding).

Capt'n Bill

 

[Maynard Rupp]

Please...No additional government regulation. I thought all the stupid people lived in Detroit. Now I find from you folks that they are everywhere. The accident in question is a prime example. We also have a photo circulating around of a Sea Ray that is sunk with only the bow sticking up. In the middle of the foredeck is the lighted bouy which cut the boat in half. Obviously the fault of the bouy, the government, the Republicans, and the Corps of Engineers.

 

[Mike36c]

I'll say it again, As an avid boater, motorcycle driver, pilot and flight instructor: NO ONE can legislate or enforce common sense. You can't fix stupid.

 

[Boss Lady]

There are plenty opportunities to fly without a FAA pilots license, you can hang glide, conventional glider, ultralights, and I am not sure but you don't even have to take a physical for the Sport Pilots category. Yes there are plenty of them that do their best lawn dart impression every year. Nobody rushes out and says they all should have to attend training and get a license. Most people don't do these things because they are inherently risky, so if you crash and burn, mainstream people think you knew what you were doing and the risks are readily apparent so you get what you deserve. Like sky diving (perfectly good airplane), mountain climbing, downhill skiing, etc. Look at drivers training, what a joke, they don't teach any of the physics, or have practical training where they put you on a skid pad and have you do emergency manuevers so yo u can actually learn what the car will do. But they will teach that drinking and driving is bad. A boating license will be some lousy class about the rules, and a multiple guess test, then the future Searay owner will have a license and we will all be paying for it with new fees, but the same dipshits will still have boats with a license and still do stupid things. If we all had a big spike in the center of the steering wheel instead of airbags, everyone would be more careful. Anti-lock brakes were supposed to reduce accidents, but they have gone up instead. Why? because the idiots follow closser than they used to because they have anti-lock brakes, but the idea was if you kept the same safe distances and had anti-lock breaks it would reduce accidents. I vote that they put about 5 lbs of explosives in the trunk of your car and put detonators on the front and back bumpers, and then let's see how courteous everyone gets while driving their cars. I agree that in a perfect world we could implement mandatory boater training and we would have more safety, that however is not reality. Boating is inherently risky, the water is a very hostile place for the unprepared. People will abuse a boat and get away with most of the time, if you abuse a parachute or did not do proper maintenance on airplane, you might not get away with it, when the consequences of not doing things the right way, pop up, it tends to be fatal, with boats we just call Sea Tow, and live to tell about it. As far as government doing something useful, do you remember President Johnson's war on poverty? You know, we were going to stamp out illiteracy, ignorance, drug abuse, un-wed mothers, etc. Well we we have spent Trillions of dollars on these things since 1964, and not one of them has gotten better, in fact, they have only gotten worse. So no thank you.

 

[(Nobody You Know)]

"I agree that in a perfect world we could implement mandatory boater training and we would have more safety, that however is not reality."

Chris,

I thought I made the point quite well when I sighted facts from the state of Alabama.

I'd like to mount that spike out my rear bumper though.

Capt'n Bill

 

[Boss Lady]

LOL, I HADN'T THOUGHT OF THAT ONE! Once upon a time (isn't that how most fairy tales start?) things were a lot different, Many problems did not exist because they were mostly within the domain of the wealthy or professional class. Most people did not own large boats, only the well to do did, most of which were members of yacht clubs or power squadrons, or you held a commercial captains license. Not many problems. Americans today are so well off that even a blue collar worker can afford a decent size boat. This is why we have a problem. Boating is not alone with this problem. The yacht clubs of old were very instrumental in training new owners, same goes for the power squadrons. But back then you wanted to be part of the club, for social reasons, not only did you learn safe boating, but also etiquette. Golf has the same problem, once it was the domain of the wealthy, but now even Bubba has a public course to play and he can use his new clubs he bought at Walmart. Previously, you had to be invited to play, and the person who invited you had a reputation to protect, so very few idiots got in the door to play. Even after the flood of public courses started cropping up, there were dress codes, and rules of etiquette. Instruction was highly encouraged, and someone violating the rules was checked by his peers. Now you can show up to play wearing anything short of being naked, do just about anything you want unless you are destroying the course, because the management doesn't want to run away revenue by telling someone that they are complete boob. What these idiots do not understand is that there is more to golf or boating than just having the right equipment. What one might call having social graces. These are things that are all but extinct in our society today. If you think that making everyone get a license and then the authorities will enforce it for us will make boating safer, then you are sadly mistaken. We have about 80 years of automobile drivers licensing and drivers education, and things have never been worse on the street. The real problem is that so many people only care about themselves and everyone else be damned! We can thank the self centered "Pepsi" generation for this. They and now their children are some of the most ignorant, self centered, generations of people to walk this planet. We all suffer them not just in boating. I was in Beaufort, NC this weekend, and I saw a real nice older Hatteras, piloted by a couple who appeared to be in their 60's, I passed them in the ICW, just afterwards I heard them hailing for the draw bridge operator on channel 16 several times, well after several attempts and the sound of his voice getting testy calling the draw bridge, I called him to let him know that the draw bridge is on channel 13 not 16. There was silence for a long time and then he came on and said he knew that but had forgotten. It is a local boat, so how did he forget, he didn't, he is a new "Large" boat owner and probably never has needed to know how to raise the draw bridge. The name on the boat indicated that this was his IV boat, so he probably things since he can operate a grady white, he can operate a Hatteras. I bet you a dollar to a donut hole, he didn't even have a chart on board. Don't worry the next time I see him, I will certainly recommend he take some classes.