Understanding Costs of Ownership

[SportFishCruising]

I'm trying to put together a budget for Live-Aboard conditions on a 48' Hatteras and so far put together the following for your critique, please.

Calculating Live-Aboard Costs (Rent), based on 50' L.O.A.

Summer Slip Rental up to 50'w/50AMP Hydro...$3,110.00
Winter Docking, $76.00/Linear Foot...................3,800.00
Winter Docking Hydro 50 AMP.............................1,950.00
Agitator Bubbler Rental, per season......................150.00
Shrinkwrapping with bridge, $23/ft x 50...............1,150.00
Zipper Door for access when shrinkwrapped.............65.00
In-Water Surcharge.........................................200.00
-----------TOTAL........................$10,425.00 or $868.75 per month
(based on actual Harbour Charges, Cdn funds)

ADD: Live-Aboard Insurance, Cable TV/Internet, Pump-outs, Water...(anything missing?)
-checked with Harbour, Yearly Slips available, has washrooms/showers & laundry room.
-checked with Marine Services at harbour, no problem with parts & servicing Detroits
-Harbour has Canvas & Boat Top repair facilities, paintbooth, restaurant, fuel dock & lots of vehicle parking & allows for Chartering. Food stores, banks etc within walking distance.

Operating & Maintenance Costs: (need estimates here)
Lift-in & Lift-out w/Hang-in Slings over Weekend ($12.90/ft)...$645.00
Bottom Cleaning/painting (Yearly?)

 

[thoward]

I did not see any insurance. Did you add in actual cost of electric? Our 60C ran about $350/month. The maintanance will come in many forms, Air conditioners, pumps, canvas, paint, waxing, prop care, bottom maintanance, batteries and electronics. A full oil and filter(fuel&oil) change ran just shy of $800. There were 14 filters and about 20 gal of oil! Washer/dryer, hot water, fridge, ice maker, water pump and the list of stuff that breaks goes on. Chartering will do little to cover costs! Figure $30k per year min, and $40K if you want to add in rebuilds and such.

 

[Passages]

I kept detailed records on my 42'. It came to $24-25k per year with me doing much maintenance myself. I only hired help if the engine needed to be opened (annual tune up and a blower seal & exhaust gasket replacement).

As a livaboard, you will have some additional costs so I think 30k is a good annual budget.

 

[SportFishCruising]

I haven't contacted any insurance companies yet because I haven't narrowed down my boat search enough, but have it listed under 'ADD' along with some other items. Hydro is listed and included in Slip Rentals.

The regular maintenance items such as oil changes (frequency), bottom paint, etc is where I need some help, along with any other contigency items.

So far I'm at $10.5K plus Insurance per annum just to park it.
My house costs that much to maintain with Property Taxes
I'll be glad to reduce my Tax load since the Gov't just wastes it anyway.
I'm mortgage free but the dam house won't float!

 

[Captned]

Hey Sportfish,

Search the threads, we did a good breakdown of this a couple of times in the past...Good luck!


Captned
liveaboard 7+ years now...

"Houses? We dont need no stinking houses!"

 

[chris piazza]

A good rule is approx 10% of the purchase price of the boat per year for annual maintenance cost. This is just for normal maintenance, not included is if something big goes bang! This will fluctuate from year to year but 10% is a good average. This costs are not meant to scare you away but just to make you aware that these are big older boats that take a lot of time and money to be maintained in Hatteras condition.

Chris
Superior Nights 53C

 

[Blaine Thorpe]

Not sure if your yard will let you do it, but I have been shrink wrapping my own 36' for 6 years now. I bought the heat gun the first year. I use about 50' of film to do a 36' convertible and it come to about $225 per year for the whole job including the zipper door.

I have since purchased a second heat gun for a little faster production. We do 4 or 5 boats every year with the largest being a 41' Bluewater. Their cost was $295 last year.

Blaine

 

[saltshaker]

I don't think the 10% rule applies with these new low prices. May be more like 20% depending on the vessel. 20-25K per year should do it if the boat is owned free and clear. Maybe more or less based on geography. Your winter slip fees seem very high. I would talk to other liveaboards in your area to see what their slip fees are.

 

[spartonboat1]

Not sure if your yard will let you do it, but I have been shrink wrapping my own 36' for 6 years now. I bought the heat gun the first year. I use about 50' of film to do a 36' convertible and it come to about $225 per year for the whole job including the zipper door.

I have since purchased a second heat gun for a little faster production. We do 4 or 5 boats every year with the largest being a 41' Bluewater. Their cost was $295 last year.

Blaine

We bought a Sailrite sewing machine and made up a custom canvas that covers the boat, as we store outside in the winter. This is a 43' and I avoided shrink wrap due to a) cost, b) level of difficulty- no one would show up to do it!

 

[SportFishCruising]

I went down to the Marina to talk to other Live Aboards, met some really nice people. Mostly sailboat owners but I don't hold that against them, at least their on the water and all boat people are nicer than landlubbers. We discussed the shrinkwrapping and formed a group to purchase our rolls of plastic together for a price break and to help each other shrinkwrap boats next winter. Some in the group already have heat guns and we all have tools, so there will be some savings for us all to work together. This will work out great as I will help the others with their boats and learn how its properly done prior to doing my own. Up here its very cold in the winter, so everyone recommends clear plastic to allow the sun's rays through for free solar heat and hydro savings. They use a wood frame to form a arch over the boat giving it plenty of space to walk on deck and even store items there. Going onboard a couple boats I found it pleasantly warm and bright regardless of the rum they served. It is allowed by the Marina and it looks like I will be joining a nice community.

Regarding other costs, actually I am just trying to form a list for my budget.
Things like winterising, oil & filter changes, bottom painting and the frequency of proper maintenance of annual or bi-annual events.

 

[stormchaser]

A good rule is approx 10% of the purchase price of the boat per year for annual maintenance cost. This is just for normal maintenance, not included is if something big goes bang! This will fluctuate from year to year but 10% is a good average. This costs are not meant to scare you away but just to make you aware that these are big older boats that take a lot of time and money to be maintained in Hatteras condition.

Chris
Superior Nights 53C

After owning 4 boats greater 30' over the past 15 years...this is about the number I come up with...but based on surveyed value not purchase price. Purchase price is too variable, expecially in this market. But this number also goes down as value goes up. A $20,000 boat will take quite a bit more than 10% to keep, but a $10,000,000 boat will most certainly not take $1,000,000 per year. The owner of one of our marinas up here (Plesure Cove) owns a fairly famous bright orange/yellow boat called Purely Pleasure that was recently valued at $10,000,000...I know the manager of the yard that maintains her...he says Jerry spends about $75-100,000 per year on keeping her in top shape.

 

[SportFishCruising]

I wish I had Jerry's problem....lol.
But, I'm getting a very good understanding for working on a budget.
I love this Forum, you guys are awesome and I am extemely appreciative of everything I am learning from here.

 

[J's Dream]

The owner of one of our marinas up here (Plesure Cove) owns a fairly famous bright orange/yellow boat called Purely Pleasure that was recently valued at $10,000,000...I know the manager of the yard that maintains her...he says Jerry spends about $75-100,000 per year on keeping her in top shape.

Dave, you're missing ALOT of expenses.

Crew cost? On a ten million dollar boat, you need a crew, and they don't work for free.

Dockage? Even though he owns the marina, he pays it dockage if he's doing proper business, and without knowing the size of boat, let's assume its 1500 per month, which is 18,000/yr.

Electric? If Tod's 60' Hatt used 350/month, how much is this bill?

Insurance? Gotta be more than our boats, which average up to 5000/year.

 

[saltshaker]

The 10% rule is just a crude estimate based on a boat in good condition and over an extended period. A brand new 200K 30ft center console w/outboards, will cost a lot less to own than a 30 yr old 200K 53 MY, over the same 10 year period. With the low prices of today's used boats, you need to carefully analyze the specific cost associated with each vessel in question.

For each boat you are considering, you need to calculate slip fees, storage fees, utilities, insurance, routine maintenance, fuel usage, planned upgrades, major repair contingency.

As Mike P said earlier, your cost go way down if you can do things yourself. Being in freshwater, some of your cost may be less than those of us in saltwater. You won't need to change your zincs as often, bottom painting is not as frequent and just about everything on the boat last longer when away from the salt. Your insurance will be much cheaper if you insure for inland waterways instead of US coastal.

We have several forum members that boat in the Great Lakes and at least a few that are in the Toronto area. I'm sure they can help you with cost specific to the region.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Great Lakes costs for a 53 Hatteras:

Insurance (400K agreed value): $2500
Summer Dockage + electric $3500
Winter heated storage: $5000
Oil & filters: $ 500
Bottom paint(VC every yr) : $ 800
Fuel: $6000
Polishing of hull & topsides: $1500
Other stuff that comes up: $2000
Zincs and hull scraping: Nada

TOTAL: $21800/yr without any major mechanical failures

Value of being able to de-stress every weekend from April thru October:

PRICELESS!

 

[Genesis]

Gigabite (a 45C) cost me roughly $15 large a year in fixed costs (moorage, insurance and expected maintenance and repair parts, with me doing essentially all of the labor) annually. Add to that fuel which of course is entirely dependant on how many hours you run and at what RPM you run them.

If you pay someone else to do the work, add at least 25% to that budget, and probably more like 50%.

Then add in a reserve for "surprises". There WILL be surprises; expect one moderate one every couple of years. During my years of ownership they included a foredeck (under the anchor pulpit) core repair job, generator replacement and a pair of exhaust collectors. The former wasn't particularly EXPENSIVE, but I did the work - if I had farmed it out that would have been an easy 10 large, and having done the job, if you asked ME to do YOURS, I would charge you AT LEAST that much (yeah, it's that nasty of a job.) This assumes of course that you do not defer maintenance and replace things that wear out or break as required. A well-maintained boat always has a "to do" list; if yours does not, its IMHO not well-maintained - you're just at the level of "would like tos" instead of "have tos".

Boats are money pits and even "simple" things like the annual haul and bottom paint on a boat of this size has a very significant cost associated with it, as does insurance.

 

[stormchaser]

Dave, you're missing ALOT of expenses.

Crew cost? On a ten million dollar boat, you need a crew, and they don't work for free.

Dockage? Even though he owns the marina, he pays it dockage if he's doing proper business, and without knowing the size of boat, let's assume its 1500 per month, which is 18,000/yr.

Electric? If Tod's 60' Hatt used 350/month, how much is this bill?

Insurance? Gotta be more than our boats, which average up to 5000/year.

Oh, absolutely! I was talking about maintenance only, not total cost of ownership...sorry if it seemed otherwise. But she's not THAT much bigger our boat. She's a 66' custom QUAD engined Infiniti sport. I am considering moving my boat to his marina and would be in the same size slip as Purely Pleasure...in fact I would be 2 slips down from it. His marina jumps from 40' slips to 75'...I tin he has 4 of the big slips. He charges $125/ft/year for a slip. So it would be $8,250 for a slip for a 66'er. But you are totally right, I was only calculating maintenance...

 

[saltshaker]

remember BOAT is Break Out Another Thousand!

 

[holtcl]

And unfortunately, sometimes it's B.O.A.T.T.

 

[stormchaser]

I was going to say that on many boats above 40' it really should be Break Out Another Ten-thousand. hahaha! Oh Wait...that's not funny.