'THERE IS SMOKE EVERYWHERE!!' not what you want to hear 40mi offshore....

[osprey]

Have you pressure checked the intercooler. P

 

[rustybucket]

Have you pressure checked the intercooler. P

Not since the engine went down. Both were cleaned and tested a couple months ago.

On disassembly the intercooler was WAAAYY dirtier/sootier than it should have been. The intake side of the turbos were also very black/sooty. This was definitely odd b/c I have racor CCV's which keep my intake side of the turbos squeaky clean.

 

[rsmith]

If it actually ran in reverse the inter coolers blowers and air boxes would be full of sea water also

 

[rustybucket]

If it actually ran in reverse the inter coolers blowers and air boxes would be full of sea water also

Looks like about a cup, maybe 2, of seawater made it to the airbox. There it appears most of it drained out to my puke cans. There was only a couple of spoonfulls of seawater in the airbox when I pulled the inspection plate, and probably a couple cups in the puke can.

Looks like all that made it to the intercooler and turbos (intake side) was just a mist/spray. There were def signs of saltwater but no pooling except for on the lip of the turbo that the airsep connects to. There was a tiny bit of water pooled on it, almost like some had condensated and then drained/dripped down to it. I'm talking maybe 5cc or something like that. It also had soot on/in it. Barely enough to be noticed, but something I've never seen before on these engines and I've had the airseps off a million times.

I'm kinda thinking my puke can really saved my ass. If the airbox hadn't been draining to the puke can I would have been sending seawater straight into the oil pan.

 

[rustybucket]

Good news from the machine shop. Heads are in great shape, no cracks, no warps...etc. New injector tubes and valve seats out the door for a bit over $700.

Hope to have some cylinders out soon!!

 

[rustybucket]

Ok, all cylinders and pistons are out! woot woot!! Took about 3 days of piddling with the first one, which just happened to be the seized cylinder. Once I got it out the engine un-seized and the cylinder puller and crankshaft rotation could be used to pull the rest of the cylinders.

The cylinder puller recommended by Ronald Sparks over on BoatDiesel.com sure did make things easy. It's almost unbelievable to me that with a $50 tool you can pull the cylinders in no time. I unbolted the rods, removed the endcaps then just lightly bumped the crankshaft against the rod bearing, the cylinders just tap tapp tapparood their way right out of the block. I can't see how it could have been any easier.

The #1 cylinder on port side of the engine was the seized cylinder. The cylinder itself was broken on the bottom 'skirt' (not sure what else to call that area?). The piston is also seized to the cylinder wall. Pretty sure some of the rings are broken, I didn't spend a ton of time looking at it yet, will inspect further and post pics later.

The rod on that piston was also bent.

All other rods, cylinders and pistons were in decent shape but all bearings and cylinder walls show signs of running without lubrication.

I've done a prelim inspection on the block and all appears to be good to go, no signs of cracking/warping that I can see. Will inspect more closely tomorrow.

Crankshaft looked fantastic, no scoring at all.

Then I guess I need to get some part numbers off these cylinders and measure the block somehow, need to do a little more reading on that.

Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to go down some ibuprofen and lay down. I might not be able to get out of the bed tomorrow!! haha The Boat Room Yoga class today really kicked my ass lol.

 

[cww]

You have bent rods from hydro locking the motor. It was the only thing that made any sense. There are only two ways that happened, the likeliest being wave action up the exhaust. My dock neighbors stuff balls in the exhausts to prevent this, if the engine’s not running I don’t see why you couldn’t use that trick underway.

 

[jim rosenthal]

Or flapper valves on the exhaust ports in the transom, maybe. Does your engine exhaust system have surge tubes?

 

[Dan Mapes]

Are you going to have the #1 plated and mounted? I am thinking you deserve a trophy.

 

[rustybucket]

You have bent rods from hydro locking the motor. It was the only thing that made any sense. There are only two ways that happened, the likeliest being wave action up the exhaust. My dock neighbors stuff balls in the exhausts to prevent this, if the engine’s not running I don’t see why you couldn’t use that trick underway.

Sorry, just does not seem that this is the case. The evidence just does not support it as far as I can tell. The hydrolock theory just doesn't make any sense given what we are seeing.

Sure, if you look at ONLY the bent rod 'hydrolock' is the easy off-the-cuff response, but when you actually LOOK at the evidence....

It appears the piston welded/galled itself to the cylinder wall at the bottom of it's stroke when the engine originally seized. The rod may have bent on original seize, or it may have bent when we re-started the engine. When we re-started (the already seized) engine I'm thinking the cylinder skirt broke off likely from a rod strike or from the galled ring pulling away from it (or combination of the two)

The engine only ran a few seconds with a bent rod after being re-crancked. The marks on the crank/block show very limited strikes, so it only ran this way for a few seconds, which would align with the amount of time we ran the engine on re-crank.

The engine was seized from running without lubrication. By attempting to re-crank (thinking it was just the starter) we probably broke the liner and bent the rod. Really lucky we didn't cause more damage.

The bent rod was in cylinder #1 on port side. It is the highest, and furthest forward cylinder. The water would have had to run uphill 3 different times to get into this cylinder. If I put a water hose in my exhaust manifold, this would be the last cylinder to fill with water. It was the only cylinder to show damage. How does all that water get past 3 cylinders and run uphill multiple times? On a day that was lake calm.

Again, I'm all for alternative diagnosis but when the hard evidence does not support the theory I cannot just blindly accept. There was no water in cylinder 1, only galled cylinder walls, welded rings and heat lines around the cylinder where the piston was galled in place.

So, again, just to clarify... When we pushed the button to crank the engine (after all the smoke cleared) the engine was already seized. The crank barely even budged when she hit the starter (I was looking at it). The engine was already locked down HARD. So, in your hydrolock scenario, how in the world could water get all the way through the muffler, up the exhaust incline, through the turbo, down the exhaust elbow, UP the exhaust manifold (somehow going past 3 cylinders) and into and fill up the forward most cylinder. Which appears to have been at it's down-stroke (intake ports open) when it seized. I'm always one for a good conspiracy but it just doesn't make any sense.

A hydro-lock does not score/gall trash all the cylinders and bearings from lack of lubrication. A hydro-lock does not smoke up the entire cabin and engine room. Both of which are undeniable symptoms we experienced. An engine running in reverse rotation does present both of these symptoms.

 

[rustybucket]

Are you going to have the #1 plated and mounted? I am thinking you deserve a trophy.

It's definitely going to be displayed somewhere. It already has a cool patina to it, not sure if I'm going to leave it as-is, polish it or plate it.

 

[rustybucket]

Here are the marks on the block where the piston skirt appears to have contacted after the rod bent. This is likely the noise I was hearing when we re-started the engine after it was seized.

Looks like maybe 10-15 impacts

 

[Eddieclemons]

Thanks for sharing your journey, I am definitely pulling for you and I hate that it happened. Has Mr. Sparks given an opinion on your failure over on the BD thread? I haven't had a chance to read that thread.

 

[cww]

Sorry, just does not seem that this is the case. The evidence just does not support it as far as I can tell. The hydrolock theory just doesn't make any sense given what we are seeing.

Sure, if you look at ONLY the bent rod 'hydrolock' is the easy off-the-cuff response, but when you actually LOOK at the evidence....

It appears the piston welded/galled itself to the cylinder wall at the bottom of it's stroke when the engine originally seized. The rod may have bent on original seize, or it may have bent when we re-started the engine. When we re-started (the already seized) engine I'm thinking the cylinder skirt broke off likely from a rod strike or from the galled ring pulling away from it (or combination of the two)

The engine only ran a few seconds with a bent rod after being re-crancked. The marks on the crank/block show very limited strikes, so it only ran this way for a few seconds, which would align with the amount of time we ran the engine on re-crank.

The engine was seized from running without lubrication. By attempting to re-crank (thinking it was just the starter) we probably broke the liner and bent the rod. Really lucky we didn't cause more damage.

The bent rod was in cylinder #1 on port side. It is the highest, and furthest forward cylinder. The water would have had to run uphill 3 different times to get into this cylinder. If I put a water hose in my exhaust manifold, this would be the last cylinder to fill with water. It was the only cylinder to show damage. How does all that water get past 3 cylinders and run uphill multiple times? On a day that was lake calm.

Again, I'm all for alternative diagnosis but when the hard evidence does not support the theory I cannot just blindly accept. There was no water in cylinder 1, only galled cylinder walls, welded rings and heat lines around the cylinder where the piston was galled in place.

So, again, just to clarify... When we pushed the button to crank the engine (after all the smoke cleared) the engine was already seized. The crank barely even budged when she hit the starter (I was looking at it). The engine was already locked down HARD. So, in your hydrolock scenario, how in the world could water get all the way through the muffler, up the exhaust incline, through the turbo, down the exhaust elbow, UP the exhaust manifold (somehow going past 3 cylinders) and into and fill up the forward most cylinder. Which appears to have been at it's down-stroke (intake ports open) when it seized. I'm always one for a good conspiracy but it just doesn't make any sense.

A hydro-lock does not score/gall trash all the cylinders and bearings from lack of lubrication. A hydro-lock does not smoke up the entire cabin and engine room. Both of which are undeniable symptoms we experienced. An engine running in reverse rotation does present both of these symptoms.

Hydrolocking not only explains the damage in your photos, it is by far the most likely (to the point of certainty) explanation. I have no clue why you're so caught up on this idea that the motor must have somehow randomly started up in reverse rotation, but at this point I've put my $0.02 in and arguing over it isn't going to accomplish anything. It isn't going to kill you to keep the engine idling in the future when trolling, so you don't have water ingestio....uh, I mean 'reverse rotation' issues.

 

[JuiceClark]

Well, thank goodness you have the capability to take that big girl apart and rebuild yourself. It'd probably be several months waiting to have the work done - with the way things are these days and the storm just West of you.

I'm waiting 6 weeks for both my A/C guy to come AND to have the boat pulled to check the underwater hardware.

As an aside: The yard where I'll get my boat pulled has SEVEN SeaRays ahead of me. It's all people who bought a boat with I/Os last year and ran it up on a sandbar. lol So, they have to pull the outdrives and the engines out to repair the gimble housing and related transom damage.
That's a good example of why our boat insurance has gone up so damned much.

 

[rsmith]

What ever the cause breaking a hardened liner is almost unheard of. Piston yeh but holy crap. I’d seriously think about pulling the crank and checking for run out.

 

[rustybucket]

Hydrolocking not only explains the damage in your photos, it is by far the most likely (to the point of certainty) explanation. I have no clue why you're so caught up on this idea that the motor must have somehow randomly started up in reverse rotation, but at this point I've put my $0.02 in and arguing over it isn't going to accomplish anything. It isn't going to kill you to keep the engine idling in the future when trolling, so you don't have water ingestio....uh, I mean 'reverse rotation' issues.

I guess I'm 'caught up in it' b/c it's the only scenario that fully explains everything we are seeing.

So, ok, you say it hydrolocked, where did the nasty/smelly smoke that filled up the entire cabin and engine room come from? Why are all the other cylinders galled? I need to answer those other questions before I can accept a hydrolock diagnosis.

What if.... I mean what if..... some of the hydrolock diagnosis in the past you claim as 'common' were actually due to counter rotation? I'm going waaaaayyyyy out on a limb here, but what if counter rotation was not as uncommon as we think? Would be nice to survey everyone who ever hydro locked an engine and ask if they experienced lots of smoke from an unknown source?

 

[rustybucket]

What ever the cause breaking a hardened liner is almost unheard of. Piston yeh but holy crap. I’d seriously think about pulling the crank and checking for run out.

The rod was bent in such a way that it would have impacted the edge of the liner on stroke.

 

[rustybucket]

Well, thank goodness you have the capability to take that big girl apart and rebuild yourself. It'd probably be several months waiting to have the work done - with the way things are these days and the storm just West of you.

I'm waiting 6 weeks for both my A/C guy to come AND to have the boat pulled to check the underwater hardware.

As an aside: The yard where I'll get my boat pulled has SEVEN SeaRays ahead of me. It's all people who bought a boat with I/Os last year and ran it up on a sandbar. lol So, they have to pull the outdrives and the engines out to repair the gimble housing and related transom damage.
That's a good example of why our boat insurance has gone up so damned much.

One of the primary decisions (other than cost) to do the work ourselves was due to a VERY long lead time with all the mechanics I would have trusted to do this job. There were a LOT of engines in front of us. To get it done a little quicker outsourced, would have involved pulling the engine and getting it to a rebuild shop, which has it's own hurdles, but was considered greatly.

 

[rustybucket]

Thanks for sharing your journey, I am definitely pulling for you and I hate that it happened. Has Mr. Sparks given an opinion on your failure over on the BD thread? I haven't had a chance to read that thread.

Mr. Sparks has been a valuable source of information and guidance to me over there. Cannot speak highly enough of him. Your question got me thinking, so I read back over the thread and here are is a quote from him on causation. Ronald does not seem to be the type of person who speculates much, in the entire thread this is his only statement on possible causation. All of his other comments have been geared toward progress moving forward.

This is his response on us finding a limited (but very similar) amount of water on each turbo and exhaust system as well as the presence of water/vapor on the intake side of the turbo. This was also his response on if the raw water pump would have pumped water in reverse rotation.

The presence of raw water in the turbos is strong evidence that the engine briefly rotated in reverse direction, thus drawing air thru the wet exhaust system along with raw water Already in the exhaust system and discharging it into the exhaust manifold and into cylinders. Raw water did not arrive in the cylinders due to the raw water pump pumping it into the exhaust system during reverse rotation of the engine.