rolly Hats offshore, 60 E.B. vs 53

[hyperfishing]

Ok, plan to sit offshore in the deep blue for days at a time. Some concerns about the 60 EB being a bit top heavy and rolly at rest in the Briney deep.

Advantages of an enclosed bridge are obvious in that situation. But, the old school 53 sportfish has many say it is really the best offshore, not as rolly even with a very high tower attached. Ok, in 3 to 4 foot seas, maybe 5 to 6s, how much does a 53 roll at rest with a tower vs a 60 with a half tower??

Speak up please, those who can compare the two.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

I have seen several 60C's with stabilizers. I assume there is some need for them or someone would not have spent the money to add them.

 

[sportfish 45]

The 53 has a 16' beam the 60 is 18. The 53 displaces around 60,000 lbs the 60 around 88,000 lbs. If you look at the difference in weight between the open bridge with a hard top and enclosed bridge how much weight could you really be talking about. Your only adding the structure between the flybridge and the hard top plus an aft bulkhead. How much can that amount to? The wind area should be no different than an open bridge with a Bimini enclosure. I've never been on a 53 but it's hard to believe it's going to roll less than a 60 EB.

Seth

 

[jlightonjr]

If you are planning on sitting offshore for days at a time, check this out:
http://extremetechnology.blogspot.com/2006/04/extreme-boating-stability.html

 

[fissioneng]

If you are planning on sitting offshore for days at a time, check this out:
http://extremetechnology.blogspot.com/2006/04/extreme-boating-stability.html

Seakeeper makes them too. The gyro needs 2-5 KW depending on size just to keep them spinning!

 

[MicroKap]

First of all, as an owner of a non-stabilized 60 EB, I can say that they are not that rolly. I'm not a big fisherman, so I don't just drift very often, so my experience is mainly based on trawler speeds and up to cruising speed. I have nothing with stabilizers to compare it to, but I've been on a number of other Sportfish that I would consider much "tipsier". While mine is a 1980, I do have some serious supports at the forward end of the engineroom, however, I have no additional structures installed as indicated by other members. Maybe by 1980, they figured out what needed to be done.

One of my friends got a Seakeeper gyro installed for free. He is doing well in the sponsorship department, Seakeeper, Northstar, Yanmar, etc. Of course it helps when you are a charter sportfishing boat with a lot of name recognition here in NJ. Anyone looking to learn more about it is more than welcome to come listen to him at my Power Squadron meeting on the evening of May 12th in Atlantic Highlands, NJ. He's going to be speaking about the 60' cold molded Ritchie Howell that they had built in 2008 using sponsors and then having the Seakeeper installed as an aftermarket item in 2009.

Let me know if you're interested in attending and I will make sure there is room for you.

 

[rsmith]

HOLD ON TIGHT
I have a 1967 50 owned it since '76 It is the same hull as the 53. In the 70's and 80's I charter fished the boat out of Cape May Nj. Mostly ran overnight swordfish trips to the offshore canyons. Once your offshore at night you drift for swords once your there you can't realy run for fear of getting tangled in all the crab and lobster gear lining the dropoff edge. We have layed out in some pretty nasty stuff You can tell when its getting bad cause the chine will come out of the water and you will hear a kaboom when it comes back down. Never had a fear of the boat going over though we did dip a rail on occasion( the cockpit is low on the 50). In contrast I fished with a friend when he bought one of the first 60 closed bridge (one of the best looking boats ever made IMO) we hooked up with a tuna fish and layed in the trough the roll ossilations would get worse and worse to the point of not being able to stand without holding your hand under the gunwale. Stabilizers dont do any good if your not moving. What we finaly did was to put the boat in gear to stop the ossilations then back down on the fish again.
I have never fished on a open bridge 60 but Ive watched several at sea and visualy the dont seem to roll as bad.
If you add up all the extra weight and factor in the distance from the center of gravity there is a lot of moment working to rock the boat.Take the weight of the glass windows alone plus the cabintry airconditioners fiberglass top. And remember this was in the day when Hatts were super overbuilt.
Another factor for the 50/53 the fuel and h2o tanks were on the centerline right down the middle of the boat down as low as could be. with full fuel and h2o this was like having a sailboat keel.
All said I love the layout and look of the 60 if these new gyro's work the 60 would be the perfect boat.
As far as having a tower I had the tower built when I bought the boat they built it on the ground next to the boat . when it was done 4 of us each grabbed a leg and walked it on the boat I was supprised how light it was. Imo the tower actualy might slow the roll due to its windage. It def adds wind drag and slows the boat down. when I was a teenager I worked on several clam draggers and they all carried a small tri sail hi in the rigging as a steading sail. I was always going to try this on the tower but was worried about the stress it would generate.

 

[sportfish 45]

I'm currently pursuing a purchase of a 60 EB so this topic was of particular interest to me. So today I spoke with Hatteras about it. What a pleasure it is to deal with people who know they're product and are willing to provide information. I asked them to make a comparison of the 53C and 60C EB 1979- 1985 as to rolling in beam seas when a drift. According to them the stability tests conducted on both vessels show the 60C EB as being considerably more stabile than the 53C. The difference in stability between the open and enclosed bridge was described as to marginal to be a factor in real world use. Given the difference in beam and weight between the 53 and the 60 this information comes as no surprise to me.


The gyro stabilizers referenced above do work when not under weigh that's one of the reasons they were developed. I guess you could come up with a particular sea condition in which a 53 performed better than a 60 EB but in general the stability data is the best gauge and it clearly shows the 60 EB as superior in that regard.

Seth

 

[hyperfishing]

This is all really terrific info. But I have always been more inclined to listen to the old sea dogs than the corporate MBAers. I also figure there must be a reason why the custom big sportsfisherman do not have enclosed bridges. I was on one enclosed bridge boat (brand not disclosed..not a hat)at the dock and was surprised how much it rolled. Me thinks a 53 ft sf eventually will be. I agree that that 60EB is one of the best looking boats ever designed. I have no desire or money for stabilizers or gyros though.

Were the 60 ft stability tests conducted with the stabilizers on???

 

[sportfish 45]

The testing was not done on a stabilized boat. Very few of the 60s have stabilizers. The engineers describe the stability test as a static test to determine the boats righting moment. In other words how quickly does the boat return or try to return to level after being rolled and how much force does it take to roll it. So I wouldn't think stabilizers would make a difference anyway. As for trusting the "old salts" sure if I know them personally but even then I'll take science over opinion any day.


Seth

 

[krush]

Well, you both may be 100% correct. To my understanding the stability tests are static and don't take into account any dynamic effects like inertia. I think I could imagine where a vessel may be more statically stable but could possibly oscillate due to the waves hitting a natural rolling resonance. A pendulum swing is determined by the length of the weight from the pivot (which is why you adjust clocks by moving the weights). If the wave motion matches the natural rolling of the boat, you got a rough time.

 

[sportfish 45]

According to the experts It's possible but rare to find sea conditions were a less stable boat may roll less than a boat with better stability. I guess it depends on the height and timing of the waves in relation to the boat. The problem is none of us can control sea conditions so in my opinion the better the stability test the less likely a boat is to have a problem rolling in a beam sea. From what I've learned the idea that an enclosed bridge makes a big difference in stability is just wrong and that makes sense to me because the added weight is very small when compared to the weight of 60.

Seth

 

[Ross Macdonald]

The stabilizers do a great job on the 60 EB while the boat is underway. We don't stop to fish. Obviously they don't work sitting still. There has to be water flow going past the fins. The other option besides the seakeeper motion control system would be quantum zero motion stabilizers that would work at anchor or sitting and fishing. Don't know what the cost is compared to the seakeeper system, but quantum has these systems on quite a few big yachts. We had the pleasure of being aboard a 124 ft. Delta with the quantum system and sat in a trough and it was unbelieveable how stable it was...Probably no more than 5 degrees of roll.

 

[krush]

From what I've learned the idea that an enclosed bridge makes a big difference in stability is just wrong and that makes sense to me because the added weight is very small when compared to the weight of 60.

Seth

I agree with this line of thought. Also, the added weight really isn't that high up.

 

[rsmith]

I agree with this line of thought. Also, the added weight really isn't that high up.

IMO its more weight than you think and the deckhouse on the 60 is high off the cg to begin with. All I can tell you is I've fished on a closed bridge 60 in typical north east atlantic canyon 4-6' chop and when you lay in the trough fighting a big tuna it got down right scary. and this boat did not have a tower
In the aircraft world they call it negative stability where the ossilations keep increasing.

 

[sportfish 45]

Any boat can get scary when the wave height and timing line up in exactly the wrong way for the boats characteristics. To judge a boats overall performance based on one or two experiences is just foolish. You have to look at the testing and the track record and determine what you've got based on that. The 60C EB is considered by many to be the best boat Hat ever built many of the people at Hat feel the same way. The production run was certainly large enough to confirm that opinion.

 

[Nonchalant1]

I have seen a number of long range cruisers with "flopper stoppers" instead of stabilizers. These are large surface planers held out to the side of the boat on strong spreaders, like downriggers. They stabilize the boat while drifting because the large surface provides a lot of resistance to being pulled through the water as the boat tries to roll. They can also be used underway at displacement speeds because they are shaped to be "trawled" like the palner boards of a shrimp boat. A 60 ft. boat with a 20 ft. beam that has two flopper stoppers on 20 ft. spreaders now operates as a square roll shape that is 60ft X 60ft' instead of 60ft X 20ft..

Only problem is they're big and ugly.

While drift fishing, wouldn't you get similar roll reduction by using the props just enough to keep the bow pointed into the oncoming waves?

Doug

 

[rsmith]

Any boat can get scary when the wave height and timing line up in exactly the wrong way for the boats characteristics. To judge a boats overall performance based on one or two experiences is just foolish. You have to look at the testing and the track record and determine what you've got based on that. The 60C EB is considered by many to be the best boat Hat ever built many of the people at Hat feel the same way. The production run was certainly large enough to confirm that opinion.

I fished 18 offshore canyon trips on the 60 not just 1or 2 I kind of got a good feel for how that boat handled. Its a great boat but it rolls like a son of a b.
As long as the boat was moving it was fine. Well built? After one season the boat went back to Hatteras because the interior started coming apart from the hull flexing. Since Ray Meyers died there is probably no one at Hatt that even was there when the boat was built. Its a great cruiser or floating condo but hard core fishing boat its not.

 

[sportfish 45]

I fished 18 offshore canyon trips on the 60 not just 1or 2 I kind of got a good feel for how that boat handled. Its a great boat but it rolls like a son of a b.
As long as the boat was moving it was fine. Well built? After one season the boat went back to Hatteras because the interior started coming apart from the hull flexing. Since Ray Meyers died there is probably no one at Hatt that even was there when the boat was built. Its a great cruiser or floating condo but hard core fishing boat its not.

OK Then as a guy who's going to buy one of these boats I'm faced with a choice. I could Trust the stability data and the opinions of the people at Hat. Trust what I've seen and heard from an awful lot of experienced people and every independant test or review I could find. Or I could trust your opinion. If I trust your opinion I have to believe that the stability data is either wrong or forged. I'd have to believe that hat built and sold hundreds of boats that were simply disasters incapable of performing properly for they're intended purpose and hundreds of people were foolish enough to buy them. I'd have to believe that all the current owners and operators of these boats are conspiring to protect the reputation of hat and are willing to continue using These "scary" boats putting themselves at risk. And I'd have to believe that you choose to do 18 off shore canyon trips on this "scary floating condo"

In my position who would you choose to believe?

 

[Man Hatt'n']

Wasn't it Thumper's mother who said, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."? Howard in beautiful west Michigan, thinking Thumper's mother was wise.